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  1. #166
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    If a baby is born with a [BEEP] she is a girl. Penis, a boy. Yes, the sex should be on the birth certificate, along with other facts. Time, weight, etc.

    Re: confederate flag, times were different when the north fought against the south. We can’t and should not erase history. We should honor history. We’ve come a long way.

  2. #167
    Cuchculan's Avatar
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    Have a read of this Kevin. Neo- Nazis at play.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...l-Georgia.html
    The Lovable Irish Rogue

  3. #168
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    Cuchman, the problem with that is that the Confederate flag has not been banned, at least not where I live and I see it almost weekly...your argument is valid though. The Confederate Civil War general monuments erected across the states formerly belonging to the Confederacy mostly popped up way after the Civil War era, I think the most were erected during the 1920s when racial tensions were at a high point, and again about forty or fifty years later (Civil Rights movement). What was made illegal/banned was slavery, and resentment against the North and Civil Rights for human beings who were slightly different than the majority and so forth was expressed through those monuments.

    Long story short, honoring history is honestly the first thing you think of when you see a Confederate flag, JamieWAgain? I associate Confederate flags with bigotry, slavery, willful ignorance, nationalism, and now, Neo-Nazis etc. No one suggested it was even possible to erase history. This particular piece of history is also a very good way to make a person of African descent feel at least a little bit uncomfortable when they see it in a public place...I'm white myself, and it would make me a little uncomfortable to see "historical" symbols etc. that have anti-white overtones proudly displayed in public areas around my town, it might even make me feel unwelcome enough in town to seek another place to live, and that might actually be the intended purpose of those historical symbols, no?

    If someone has a penis when theyre born they should be listed as having a penis if it's important to the parents and family or medically necessary. If they have female sex organs, they should be listed as having female sex organs. That's the furthest I feel you can go without starting to make assumptions. A sex organ existing at birth of one sex or the other does not determine the newborn's entire lifelong sex, gender, who they are sexually attracted to, so on and so forth. I feel I beat that horse to death with a few previous posts.

  4. #169
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    Quote Cuchculan View Post
    I meaning, for example, you have a new baby boy. Yes. Penis and all. Only you are one of these modern parents who wants to be seen as trendy. So you refuse to say it is a boy. You tell people it is not up to you to give the baby a sex. That is up up to the baby when he is old enough. It is not an LGBT issue. Not when it is a new born baby. You have thousands of these new type of parents out there who refuse to use any sex at all. Because they say it is not up to them. Which to me is a load of bollox.
    (sorry, I know we've moved on, but I had to put in my $.02)

    This cute little "trend" among modern parents could (imo) just be devastating to any child's development. Absolutely devastating. To me, this is child abuse. Parents are supposed to provide a safe, predictable, loving environment that promotes physical, mental, spiritual, emotional and social growth. This would do nothing....nothing but confuse any child. Sexual development and sexual identity begins much earlier than the onset of puberty, and there is much more to it than a very young child being able (lmao, omg, are you f-ing serious) to determine "I'm a girl" or "I'm a boy". There is soooo much more to it than that.

    Parents who do this seem to be operating under the assumption that their child is going to wake up one day "when they're old enough" and figure out their sexual identity. Like it would be that simple. I really shudder to think about what any kid would struggle with, after being told for years "you figure it out, you decide your gender". These are very, very adult issues, very hard to sort out. Issues that teenagers and grown men and women struggle with, and I can't believe any parent would do this to their own children. Wow.

    Some people should really, really not be allowed to have children imo. I swear to God. I'm dead serious.
    You're going to lose people in your life, and realize that no matter how much time you spent with them or how often you told them you loved them, it will never seem like it was enough.

    Hug the ones you love.

  5. #170
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    I strongly disagree with both of your arguments Kevin. The confederate flag is not a symbol of racism or bigotry but is something southerners hold dear. They are not holding dear to their hearts that they want or are for slavery, for goodness sake. They are proud to be from the south. We used to go to an annual convention in S. Carolina and the men ( and women) held an annual ?north vs south? vollyball contest. Most years the south won and would find new and ingenuous ways to have the confederate flag make an appearance. One year a parachuter jumped out of a plane and landed on the beach with the flag, one year a diver appeared to rise out of the ocean and emerged on tge beach carrying the flag etc.

    Geez Loise regarding the birth of a baby. While everyone might not be born a prince or princess, (news of the day)most of us are born either a girl or a boy.

    With respect,
    Jamie

  6. #171
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    I guess my argument is pretty simple. Whatever the original symbolism of the Confederate flag, it no longer solely represents that, it represents what it has been employed to represent by people from its creation to the present day. The exact, original symbolism of it I would have to look up, but it certainly was the flag of a group of people who committed treason against the United States of America, conducted a prolonged war on US soil, a war in which more US citizens died than any other war the US has been involved in, ever, and was the flag of a group of people who felt that one particular group of people were right to enslave another group...

    The symbolism it carries today is the original symbolism plus all the historical uses of it, including a counter-movement against a movement for human rights, as sunrise's post above shows.

    JamieWAgain-
    The very fact that displaying the Confederate flag usually requires some kind of explanation or defense of its display by the person or whatever displaying it about how it's not actually racist because ______ is a red flag to me that yeah it's racist. It's like someone starting a sentence with "Well, I'm not racist but..." and then something racist immediately follows. If you have to explain why a thing isn't actually some particular thing but a completely different thing...why not find a better thing so you don't have to explain it? Like if you want to show you're proud of being from the South, why not a bumper sticker or flag with the words "I am proud of being from the South." Less style, maybe, but you don't have to explain you're not actually racist.

    InvisibleGuy-
    To be clear, I don't know if you were addressing me or Cuchman, but I don't disagree with you. I think Cuchman is saying to refuse to say a newborn is a boy or a girl based on the presence of external sexual organs is not good, and waiting for the individual to explore his or her or its own sexuality to give a sex is also bad. Previous posts Cuchman and I have hashed this out a bit more. I would agree with you that it is possible this not assigning a gender to a newborn until later could be harmful. As I said in previous posts, I would argue it is more probable that assigning a newborn a sex based on external sex organs immediately at birth, and then, for lack of a better word, enforcing that assignment with the relevant gender-specific colors, toys, clothes, and so on could more a lot more harmful. If a child assigned a male identity at birth were forced to develop in whatever way that child's parents believe is a stereotypically male way for their culture, etc., but later came to identify as more feminine than masculine, it can lead to a much higher rate of suicide for that individual than their peers who identify as a sex other than what they were assigned at birth but are allowed to live as they prefer to experience. So that was a long sentence. Basically if a person is allowed to say "Hey, I'd prefer it if I were able to act/dress/speak/live the way I want to, and that you respect that" to others and their peers respect their wishes, they're much less likely to be at risk for suicide and other adverse things like substance abuse. I mean if I preferred the color blue but my parents said no that's girly your favorite color is actually pink because you were born with a penis and we're gonna paint your bedroom pink and your first car's gonna be pink and you can never wear any blue clothes..." I feel it'd get frustrating for me.

    Cuchman-
    What have you done?!

  7. #172
    kevinjoseph's Avatar
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    Actually just looked up the original flag of the CSA to try to see what its original meaning was. The first flag of the CSA looked nothing like what we today would consider a Confederate flag, it kinda looks to me like something a child might draw if asked to draw the US flag. The flag we consider a Confederate flag didn't show up on the battle field in any form until 1863, and that's the flag I see that people tend to fly to purportedly express southern pride.

    The same wikipedia entry (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_...tes_of_America) details this and even has images of flags of specific regiments from each state. So, if you really wanted to express pride of being from the south, you could easily employ one of these other, more specific flags that have no racist overtones, and if people need an explanation, you can sound really smart and explain that it was the flag of the whatever regiment that was composed of soldiers from whatever state.

    One section of that wikipedia entry is devoted to modern display of the flag and controversy about that. It says in part: "Despite never having historically represented the Confederate States of America as a country, nor officially recognized as one of its national flags, the rectangular Second Confederate Navy Jack and the Battle Flag of Northern Virginia are now flag types commonly referred to as the Confederate Flag. They both have become a widely recognized symbol of the Southern United States. It is also known as the rebel flag, Dixie flag, and Southern cross and is often incorrectly referred to as the Stars and Bars. The actual "Stars and Bars" is the first national flag, which used an entirely different design."

    For the most recent example of the Confederate flag's modern usage, the following is a quote from Esquire magazine, in an article about President Trump being greeted by Polish citizens in Poland: "On July 6, 2017, a Confederate battle flag was waved to greet President Trump upon his arrival in Poland for a brief visit before the G20 summit in Hamburg." Were these Polish citizens also expressing pride at being from the southern United States? Most likely they were not.

  8. #173
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    Quote kevinjoseph View Post
    InvisibleGuy-
    To be clear, I don't know if you were addressing me or Cuchman, but I don't disagree with you. I think Cuchman is saying to refuse to say a newborn is a boy or a girl based on the presence of external sexual organs is not good, and waiting for the individual to explore his or her or its own sexuality to give a sex is also bad. Previous posts Cuchman and I have hashed this out a bit more. I would agree with you that it is possible this not assigning a gender to a newborn until later could be harmful. As I said in previous posts, I would argue it is more probable that assigning a newborn a sex based on external sex organs immediately at birth, and then, for lack of a better word, enforcing that assignment with the relevant gender-specific colors, toys, clothes, and so on could more a lot more harmful. If a child assigned a male identity at birth were forced to develop in whatever way that child's parents believe is a stereotypically male way for their culture, etc., but later came to identify as more feminine than masculine, it can lead to a much higher rate of suicide for that individual than their peers who identify as a sex other than what they were assigned at birth but are allowed to live as they prefer to experience. So that was a long sentence. Basically if a person is allowed to say "Hey, I'd prefer it if I were able to act/dress/speak/live the way I want to, and that you respect that" to others and their peers respect their wishes, they're much less likely to be at risk for suicide and other adverse things like substance abuse. I mean if I preferred the color blue but my parents said no that's girly your favorite color is actually pink because you were born with a penis and we're gonna paint your bedroom pink and your first car's gonna be pink and you can never wear any blue clothes..." I feel it'd get frustrating for me.
    I agree.



    I think.
    You're going to lose people in your life, and realize that no matter how much time you spent with them or how often you told them you loved them, it will never seem like it was enough.

    Hug the ones you love.

  9. #174
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    Good points regarding the Confederate Flag and I do see how if flown in some areas it would represent at the very least, disrespect, and at it’s core value (as described in your posts above) bigotry and racism.

    In my example, and the people I know that display it, see it as their heritage, all of it. We can’t erase the fact that the South fought against the Northerners because the North wanted to abolish slavery. And they won and they did abolish slavery.

    But it represents to them (I think) wanting to be unique and different from the North. And southerners ARE unique and different.

    Not to change the subject as it is on topic, but what say you about....let’s say, Florida State? Their football team is called The Seminols and before the start of each game, an Indian comes out riding a huge horse in all his Indian finery. The people in the stands chant the Indian war cry. Dada dada dada dada dadt ta..all chanting the Indian fight chant and also sort of hopping on one foot, turning in circles and patting their mouths..

    Are the Seminols bigots for honoring the heritage of the Indians?
    Washington Redskins? What about them?

    Is this not the same thing, just a different race and different circumstances?

    OK. I’m out. Time for me to hit the hey as they say.

  10. #175
    Cuchculan's Avatar
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    I will leave the flag debate to you Americans. I don't live there. We have our own flag issues in the North of Ireland.

    I want to talk mystery boxes. What is a mystery box? Is a box with a question mark on it. On sale on Ebay. What is in a mystery box? That is the question. Is a gamble you take. They can sell from 15 dollars up to 20,000 dollars. What kind of idiots would buy such a thing? There are loads of idiots out there. People who spend big money and end up with junk. Some sellers are good. They will give you something good. But most are selling their rubbish. Great video on you tube of a woman opening 3 boxes that cost different prices. All she got for her money was junk.

    1_800x.png

    The world is full of gullible people. People who want to waste their money. You want to get rid of your rubbish? Box it up and sell it as a mystery box.
    The Lovable Irish Rogue

  11. #176
    CloudMaker's Avatar
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    We have had this confederate statue debate before. People want to remove and destroy part of American history ...... SAD!

    You may not agree with what these people did but they are still a part of our country’s history and should remain IMO. Just how there are statues from the third Reich in Germany still. That doesn’t mean that hitler was a great guy.

    Our country is one of the youngest in the world and people are destroying what few historical statues that are left !!

    Also barring genetic mutations there are only TWO sexes. Yes TWO. There is a very valid reason people are required to go through years of therapy before being allowed to get a sex change surgery in many countries !

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_...gnment_therapy

  12. #177
    kevinjoseph's Avatar
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    Cloudmaker.

    "People want to remove and destroy part of American history ...... SAD! "
    -Who said they wanted to remove and destroy part of American history? Equating removing statues honoring Civil War generals and others who were on the Confederate side during the US Civil War and actively fought against our country from their current highly public places is not the same as removing and destroying part of American history. You're committing a logical fallacy, the straw man fallacy of claiming the position you don't agree with is the same as or actually is something else when it isn't, and attacking the position that you claim is the other person's position in a discussion but actually isn't. The straw man fallacy often is employed when the person who uses it fails to be able to address an opposing position adequately, and out of desperation draws an analogy between it and something else that is usually easier to attack.

    So, you go from being unable to adequately address the idea that statues in public places honoring people who were traitors to and enemies of our country, to something about how that's like wanting to destroy US history, then eventually you wrap up your position with a comment about Adolf Hitler. Quite a bamboozle, to go from removing statues of US Civil War Confederate generals from public places in the US allllllllll the way to some comment about Hitler not being a great guy. If the quality of character of a former dictator of a foreign country somehow proves that these statues in the US must remain in public, I'm not sure how anyone is even supposed to respond because those two things are very arbitrarily related.

    Any actual counterarguments about the statues in our country's public places honoring traitors and enemies of our country continuing to exist or not are welcome if you'd like to give it another try.

    Same for what you wrote about your claim that only two sexes exist and so forth (and that claim is highly debatable and pasting a link to a wikipedia article doesn't really serve any purpose because the wikipedia article might support your straw man claim and nothing else). It's not really addressing Cuchman's original question about whether new parents should or should not assign a gender to a newborn because of the newborn's observable eternal sex organs.

    Generally, defining terms and links to sources should probably happen at the beginning of a discussion and not when one feels it will finish a discussion once and for all. This helps those discussing an issue to be more certain they are talking about the same things and less likely that things like a straw man fallacy or some other logical fallacy will occur. It saves time, if none of the previous reasons appeal to you.

    IN CONCLUSION!

    1. More useful to define terms at the beginning than toward the end of a discussion.
    2. A wikipedia article about "sex reassignment therapy" really doesn't offer any insight on the issue actually at hand or help us move the discussion (about parents choosing to name or not name their newborns at first) along.
    3. US Civil War Confederate general statues are not related to whether Adolf Hitler was a great guy.


  13. #178
    CloudMaker's Avatar
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    Ok @kevinjoseph when people in this great country 1000 years from now have no historical statues left to study and appreciate because of petty social justice movements it will be on the hands of people like you!! Not me!!

  14. #179
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    Basically you, Cloudmaker, countered a point about the uselessness of employing a straw man fallacy by attempting to use a straw man fallacy? I'm not sure if any further response to you on this topic is even a good idea anymore. Or any other issue ever anywhere forever and ever.

    Here, since you probably didn't even read the whole post through even once before you attempted to pursue the same point basically the post was already addressing, is my final argument to you on this issue:



    That emoji is not as time-consuming to read as a complete, actual response, but since you didn't seem to bother reading my post before trying to make some sort of counter-argument to it, it's the best you'll get from me.

  15. #180
    AmberHearts's Avatar
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    Quote sunrise View Post
    "People see it as a symbol of the South as a bound and discrete place. A part of the heritage that's being celebrated with it is that the South is the South, that the region has clear borders that might collate with the borders of the Confederacy. It's bound up, in this sense, in the question of the South as a once nation. But I also think that people invoke the flag because they want to endorse on some level, even if secretly or subconsciously, the very rationale for the Confederacy. When people say 'heritage not hate,' they are omitting the obvious, which is that that heritage is hate. When someone says it's about history, well, that particular history is inseparable from hate, because it is about hate. It's about racism, and it's about slavery.

    ...there is no way to separate the fact that it is on all of those flag poles and on those license plates, that it's on t-shirts and coffee cups and other paraphernalia, precisely because it was resurrected in the 1940s and 1950s as part of a massive resistance campaign against the civil rights movement. It wouldn't exist in our national popular culture without this moment, when African Americans fought for their equality, and the battle flag was recovered and redeployed as a symbol of opposition to it." https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.208b907f55b1https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.208b907f55b1

    I'm glad the statues are coming down. People can fly the flags privately, but it shouldn't be on government buildings
    I'm fine with them coming down but would rather them be placed in history museums instead of being destroyed.

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