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  1. #16
    Nyctophilia's Avatar
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    Quote Otherside View Post
    Generally best to ignore anything coming out of Russia. Goal is destabilization of the west. They hate our way of life and values, hate what we stand for. Never gotten over that the US won the cold war.

    I'm thankful that the west has actually been United over Ukraine, and seems to be waking up put of whatever geopolitical "nothing can touch us" slumber it was in.

    Want to know what they want with the world, look up Foundations of Geopolitics by Aleksandr Dugin, wikipedia has a bullet point summary. Usually wouldnt buy into this stuff but a lot of those bullet points are being crossed off, does seem like a Putin to do list.
    Yeah skimmed through and it does seem about right especially the part where they try to cut the UK off from Europe and push it towards the US, which I've not been pleased about for various reasons and the instability in the US. Man I hate fascists and people who worship Evola.

    Also no wonder Finnish people hate the Russian government so much lol. That always came across to me.

    Finland should be absorbed into Russia. Southern Finland will be combined with the Republic of Karelia and northern Finland will be "donated to Murmansk Oblast".[8]
    Currently relevant:

    Ukraine should be annexed by Russia because "Ukraine as a state has no geopolitical meaning, no particular cultural import or universal significance, no geographic uniqueness, no ethnic exclusiveness, its certain territorial ambitions represents an enormous danger for all of Eurasia and, without resolving the Ukrainian problem, it is in general senseless to speak about continental politics". Ukraine should not be allowed to remain independent, unless it is cordon sanitaire, which would be inadmissible.[8]
    Quote Ironman View Post
    There are a lot of stories coming up about how the Russian soldiers were misled on this whole thing, too.
    Yeah some were told they were going to some kind of training thing, and then ended up being sent off to war.

    Not sure how accurate this info is, but if it is Russians have also become less supportive of the war as things have progressed:

    https://twitter.com/navalny/status/1501123574156906503

    https://twitter.com/navalny/status/1501123690053910529

    https://twitter.com/navalny/status/1501123806433361924






  2. #17
    CloudMaker's Avatar
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    Look how bad they’re treating foreign volunteers OMG
    And theyre saying they’re the good guys!!!

    https://streamable.com/gsawyi

  3. #18
    Otherside's Avatar
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    And Russia is any better in its treatment of troops?

    Noone is saying Ukraine is a perfect country (far from it), but it's a case of a lesser evil, and Ukraine is by far the lesser evil.

    Russians have sent assassins over the UK every now and then and then, Last incidence was a few years back. Smuggled a nerve agent in called Novichok. Didn't even manage to kill the guy they were trying to kill, he survived. Butsome of our citizens were caught in the crossfire because of how deadly Novichok is. Could have killed thousands. Were lucky they didn't. Had to shut down the entire town pretty much in order to decontaminate the only country that has been subject to Russia doing this.

    They didnt behave like a normal before this, dread to think what they would be like if they succeed in carving up the continent as they want. Russia to us is like China is to America.
    I'M GONNA FIGHT 'EM ALL
    A SEVEN NATION ARMY COULDN'T HOLD ME BACK.......


  4. #19
    Otherside's Avatar
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    Quote Nyctophilia View Post
    Yeah skimmed through and it does seem about right especially the part where they try to cut the UK off from Europe and push it towards the US, which I've not been pleased about for various reasons and the instability in the US. Man I hate fascists and people who worship Evola.
    Read the book and it goes further on the UK. Support independence/separatist movement.

    There is evidence that they pushed disinformation in the 2014 Indyref (supporting a yes vote), according to the Russia Report. Not successful though.

  5. #20
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    Quote Otherside View Post
    And Russia is any better in its treatment of troops?

    Noone is saying Ukraine is a perfect country (far from it), but it's a case of a lesser evil, and Ukraine is by far the lesser evil.

    Russians have sent assassins over the UK every now and then and then, Last incidence was a few years back. Smuggled a nerve agent in called Novichok. Didn't even manage to kill the guy they were trying to kill, he survived. Butsome of our citizens were caught in the crossfire because of how deadly Novichok is. Could have killed thousands. Were lucky they didn't. Had to shut down the entire town pretty much in order to decontaminate the only country that has been subject to Russia doing this.

    They didnt behave like a normal before this, dread to think what they would be like if they succeed in carving up the continent as they want. Russia to us is like China is to America.
    It is war
    It is possible there are NO good guys
    Just because Russia is worse doesn’t mean we should be helping bad people!

  6. #21
    Otherside's Avatar
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    Quote CloudMaker View Post
    It is war
    It is possible there are NO good guys
    Just because Russia is worse doesn’t mean we should be helping bad people!
    Problem is, not helping Ukraine means Russia being on my continent and invading another European country in a few years time. Then another. And another. Quite possibly until there is no more Europe left and we're all just Russian vassal states.

    Russia divided Europe in two once before and it still hasnt quite recovered from that. Can see if you go to former communist Europe. Still considerably poorer than the parts that weren't.

    Lot of other countries in Europe that were once formerly a part of Russia or former Russian vassals who will be next.

    I can get Americans wanting no part in it mind - not there continent.
    I'M GONNA FIGHT 'EM ALL
    A SEVEN NATION ARMY COULDN'T HOLD ME BACK.......


  7. #22
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    Quote Otherside View Post
    Problem is, not helping Ukraine means Russia being on my continent and invading another European country in a few years time. Then another. And another. Quite possibly until there is no more Europe left and we're all just Russian vassal states.

    Russia divided Europe in two once before and it still hasnt quite recovered from that. Can see if you go to former communist Europe. Still considerably poorer than the parts that weren't.

    Lot of other countries in Europe that were once formerly a part of Russia or former Russian vassals who will be next.

    I can get Americans wanting no part in it mind - not there continent.
    IDK I don’t really believe Russia would ever dare attack NATO
    With how bad they’re struggling with Ukraine there’s no way they’d stand a chance against us
    IDK what to do about them sending people over with poison though. Hard to stop that without overthrowing them directly and even then there could be insurgences

  8. #23
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    Quote CloudMaker View Post
    IDK I don’t really believe Russia would ever dare attack NATO
    With how bad they’re struggling with Ukraine there’s no way they’d stand a chance against us
    IDK what to do about them sending people over with poison though. Hard to stop that without overthrowing them directly and even then there could be insurgences
    I agree, for now, they are not so bold as to attack NATO. Maybe in the future, few years time, they may think it is a good idea, worries me that they will think that. Putin has always seemed cold and calculating but sane, but the Ukraine speech he made (Ukraine doesnt exist as a country has no right to, they are just russians) , seemed like he gone mad.

    Army as it is at the moment does seem a bit rubbish, havent really modernized and not very good at tactics. Keep sending in paratroopers and the planes just get shot down before the paras can jump.

    Would be nice if certain European countries also funded there armies though, spent what they were required to on defence when they signed up on NATO. Hopefully they will now, any naivety on wars only happening on other continents has gone. These are some of the richest countries in the world not spending on NATO, whilst bits of poorer Europe manages to spend the 2%.
    I'M GONNA FIGHT 'EM ALL
    A SEVEN NATION ARMY COULDN'T HOLD ME BACK.......


  9. #24
    Cuchculan's Avatar
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    NATO needs to start thinking ahead of time now. Sit down with all member states and draw up a plan for the future. In the event of something bad happening. But they also need to be tough on the member states. That is were paying your own way comes into all of this. Not letting some countries away with it. If you keep letting them away it, they will keep on doing it. If that means suspending some member states from been members of NATO, then so be it. Do it. Get your message across. Following on from that the EU member states have to sit down and work out a plan of action should things get bad with the likes of Russia. How they should react. None of this waiting around for something to happen. Which is what we saw this time around. People should be ready for all of this in advance. Let us not pretend here. We could almost guess at who would cause trouble in the future. Is always the same old countries. They should have been ready for it. So the second anything happened they could put their plan of action into place. Too much sitting around waiting. Then something happens. Then they have to talk things through. Work out what to do. All agree on it. This all takes up time. To be ready in advance? Less talking and more doing.
    The Lovable Irish Rogue

  10. #25
    Nyctophilia's Avatar
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    In the long term the only way around these issues is to discourage imperialism. The US and UK are imperialistic (especially the US,) but people consistently look the other way as such these countries have no moral leg to stand on while lecturing others and come across as hypocritical on the global stage. I think Kenya had a better argument but very little influence sadly.



    So long as NATO is seen as an arm of the US imperial war machine it's also tainted.

    It would probably be better to create a new organisation, with an emphasis on opposing imperialism and this didn't surprise me either:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...on-in-his-rule

    Humans are psychologically predictable. There's even a proverb:

    The Child Who is Not Embraced by the Village Will Burn it Down to Feel its Warmth

    (that's ironically attributed to Africa too, no specific country mentioned though.)

    Putin is kind of a lost cause. He's probably a narcissist and has a lot of 'dark triad' traits. This (assuming it is accurate) is classic narcissism:

    George Robertson, a former Labour defence secretary who led Nato between 1999 and 2003, said Putin made it clear at their first meeting that he wanted Russia to be part of western Europe. “They wanted to be part of that secure, stable prosperous west that Russia was out of at the time,” he said.

    The Labour peer recalled an early meeting with Putin, who became Russian president in 2000. “Putin said: ‘When are you going to invite us to join Nato?’ And [Robertson] said: ‘Well, we don’t invite people to join Nato, they apply to join Nato.’ And he said: ‘Well, we’re not standing in line with a lot of countries that don’t matter.’”
    I'm leaning towards it being accurate since I know Trump and Putin were mutual fans of each other, and Trump is certainly a narcissist.

    But at the same time there's a kind of global prestige associated with Western Europe that's probably counterproductive to geopolitics.

    I hope that Russia can move away from this kind of personality. 'Strong men' types are often like this.

  11. #26
    Otherside's Avatar
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    I get that pretty much no country in the world has a perfect past, let alone the west - but it always comes across as "whataboutism" whenever this western hypocrisy argument comes up. Western countries have an imperial past, therefore Russia gets a free pass when it carpet bombs Ukraine.

    As for NATO? It is doing its job. Russia has so far avoided "protecting ethnic Russians" in the baltics. I suspect that it specifically wants to avoid a war with the US. I would not for a second trust that a new organization would be capable of that, particularly if the US is not a part of it. There is a reason EE countries have been falling over themselves to join NATO and have been eager to host a US military base. Certainly would not trust a large portion of Western Europe to actually protect EE.

    Russia in NATO? Did hear that. Not wanting to apply and wanting an invite says it all. Perhaps one day we can have a friendly Russia. Not until Putin is gone though, assuming that whoever comes after does take Russia down the same path. Most of Europe has accepted there empires have gone, Russia needs to as well.
    I'M GONNA FIGHT 'EM ALL
    A SEVEN NATION ARMY COULDN'T HOLD ME BACK.......


  12. #27
    Ironman's Avatar
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    There is some pretty twisted S going on over here.
    Our "President" is trying to sneak in the awful Iran nuclear deal underneath all of this while they think people aren't looking - and RUSSIA is involved in the discussion?!
    Then, he has a two-hour phone call with XI. Why don't we get a transcript of that one - see if we can impeach him over it. China "didn't want Russia invading Ukraine", but is willing to fund Russia's side.

    This globalism crap is for the birds. Anyone affected by Communism can see right through it all. Our leaders here are a mess.

  13. #28
    Cuchculan's Avatar
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    What they were saying in the papers here yesterday was that Putin has had a lot of those around him killed. They have simply vanished. If we look back throughout history we see Hitler and Stalin both done this as well. They became paranoid. Putin thinks the Russian public are going to try and overthrow him. Force him out of power. He began to suspect that those around him were in on the plot. So he acted the exact same way any crazed dictaor from the past did. Get rid of those you think are against you. Even if they are not against you.

    There is no need to change NATO. it is working just fine. View it as a group of countries standing together. Something that was never there before NATO existed. So you can't have one country, like Russia, trying to start another world war. This collection of countries will go against you. As a leader you are fully aware of this. So you know the boundary. What line you can't cross. Without NATO that boundary would not exist. Be like a free for all. Somebody has to keep the crazy people in check.
    The Lovable Irish Rogue

  14. #29
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    Putin is a real piece of work.
    He is telling Russia that everything is great - even pulling a Trump rally!
    That ain't the truth. He's going to go too far one of these days.

    JOEjanHorse is too old and Alzheimersy - a mess.

  15. #30
    Cuchculan's Avatar
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    @Otherside you can explain this one.

    59347.jpeg
    The Lovable Irish Rogue

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