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  1. #16
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    Quote Chopin12 View Post
    I was told on the other forum not to say this, but Ill go ahead and first say this is just my opinion, im obviously not a doctor nor should you take my word as sound medical advice.


    that being said, anxiety is not a physical disorder. I dont think it has anything to do with your brain chemistry. now hear me out. even if there are tests that show anxiety-sufferers have a different brain chemistry, that doesnt mean that the anxiety came from that. all it has to mean is that their emotions and thoughts changed their brain chemistry over time.

    anxiety is what you could call a mental disorder. anxiety comes from fear, a basic human emotion. and below that emotion of fear you will find fear-based thoughts. right now, at this very moment, i can choose to think different thoughts and in turn feel different emotions regardless of what my brain composition is. I strongly believe that anxiety is entirely mental and that no medication is needed. In fact, I think using medication in the hopes that its going to solve your anxiety is pointless, its never going to solve what is a mental construct that you yourself have put in place.

    that being said, i also dont have anything against people who use medication, nor do i think they are wrong for it. $hi*, Ive abused plenty of medication over my life and im still okay. my point is dont let anyone make you believe there is something physically wrong with you that can only be treated using pills.
    One working definition of "anxiety" amongst therapists is: "an over arousal of the autonomic nervous system". This over arousal can be caused by many things including: thoughts, emotions such as guilt, regret, shame, remorse, anger etc or some sort of imbalance within the brain of the individual. If anxiety is an over arousal of the autonomic nervous system then it is very much a physical disorder as well as a mental disorder. Even if anxiety were caused by thinking alone there would still be a physical, felt presence of anxiety within the body.

    It makes sense to look at both mental and physical causes for anxiety. It makes sense to look at the treatment option of medication given the research backing up the use of such meds. People are not machines and we do need more focus on treating people as individual human beings rather than just telling them to pop a pill and acting as if that somehow automatically makes things better. But meds clearly have a place in treatment plans for anxiety disorders.

  2. #17
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    Quote Chopin12 View Post
    I was told on the other forum not to say this, but Ill go ahead and first say this is just my opinion, im obviously not a doctor nor should you take my word as sound medical advice.


    that being said, anxiety is not a physical disorder. I dont think it has anything to do with your brain chemistry. now hear me out. even if there are tests that show anxiety-sufferers have a different brain chemistry, that doesnt mean that the anxiety came from that. all it has to mean is that their emotions and thoughts changed their brain chemistry over time.

    anxiety is what you could call a mental disorder. anxiety comes from fear, a basic human emotion. and below that emotion of fear you will find fear-based thoughts. right now, at this very moment, i can choose to think different thoughts and in turn feel different emotions regardless of what my brain composition is. I strongly believe that anxiety is entirely mental and that no medication is needed. In fact, I think using medication in the hopes that its going to solve your anxiety is pointless, its never going to solve what is a mental construct that you yourself have put in place.

    that being said, i also dont have anything against people who use medication, nor do i think they are wrong for it. $hi*, Ive abused plenty of medication over my life and im still okay. my point is dont let anyone make you believe there is something physically wrong with you that can only be treated using pills.
    Why were you told on the other forum not to say that? I can't see anything wrong with what you say.

    I'm in an agreement with the first bit. I don't believe mental disorders are genetic (As in you have a definite chance of having it.) Something always has to trigger that. Perphaps genetics mean a person is more likely to "trigger" the disorder, as you put it, "emotions and thoughts that changed there brain chemistry over time". So lets say a person is bullied all through childhood=lots of negative thoughts and emotions, chances are, the disorder will be "triggered".

    I have a lot of respect for the people who manage to deal with anxiety alone. I don't think I can only be treated with pills, there is some way forward without them. I wish I could find it, I'm just still searching for the way to solve this problem.

  3. #18
    Chopin12's Avatar
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    well, someone was upset that i was telling another person that they didnt need pills

    id never say theres anything wrong with taking them, and if they help then thats great, i just dont think theyre necessary or a final 'cure'
    “A Caterpie may change into a Butterfree, but the heart that beats inside it remains the same.” — Brock

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    It's terribly debilitating.

    I would love to be able to do the things I love, without having the fear there. But I'm so used to freaking out, and not being normal, that I don't know what it would like to NOT have the fear (if that makes sense.)

    Love it or hate it, it is a part of me. A part people don't understand. A part people treat me badly for. But a part that is me.

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    To answer the OPs question, yes it's real, do drug companies take advantage of it? Perhaps. But the fact is that there are also old school medications which are generic and way off patent, some from as far back as the 1950s and earlier which anxiety disorders respond to and which are still used today in certain cases.
    It's also worth noting that diagnostic screening tools have likely become more advanced rather than the rates of egocial anxiety disorder suddenly 'jumping up' in the past decade as it may have appeared to on the surface.

  6. #21
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    Quote Chopin12 View Post
    well, someone was upset that i was telling another person that they didnt need pills

    id never say theres anything wrong with taking them, and if they help then thats great, i just dont think theyre necessary or a final 'cure'
    Oh, okay. There was a bit of that going on over there. I'm fine as long as long as people don't start posting "Pills are the cause of serial killers" or something like that, based on the fact that Adam Lanza was supposedly on Anti-depressants (And therefore, they're evil, and going to cause everyone to shoot people.)

    I not 100% for pills. To be honest, I think it's up to the person really what they choose to do and how they treat this. They've just got to be aware of the facts. I don't blindly swallow meds without researching them, and I'm well aware of what they do and can do. I have an illness (bipolar disorder/manic depression) thats difficult to deal with off meds. I've seen a few stories where people have managed without them by taking fish oil, vitamins, eating certain diets and avoiding certain foods...I'm not really sure about that, but the fear of having another hypomanic episode (And they're not always great) is pretty much keeping me on my meds. I don't generally advertise all the meds I'm on either, unless I'm looking for advise and it's somewhat relevant or someones asked for it.

    I'm probably rambling a bit now. Sorry. I do that a bit, it seems.

    Quote Equinox View Post
    To answer the OPs question, yes it's real, do drug companies take advantage of it? Perhaps. But the fact is that there are also old school medications which are generic and way off patent, some from as far back as the 1950s and earlier which anxiety disorders respond to and which are still used today in certain cases.
    It's also worth noting that diagnostic screening tools have likely become more advanced rather than the rates of egocial anxiety disorder suddenly 'jumping up' in the past decade as it may have appeared to on the surface.
    This is completley irrelevant, but I came across something the other day that ws advertising the use of Abilify (aripiprazole) for the use in childern as young as ten suffering from "pediatric bipolar disorder" (Which according to DSM, doesn't even exist, seems to be different from "adult bipolar" and seems to exist solely in America, although it's now being called "Disruptive temper deregulation disorder, which to be honest, hasn't really been researched) and for even younger childern (six years old) suffering from irritabiliy due to a autistic spectrum disorder. Last I checked, Abilify was an antipsychotic? Why would you give an antipsychotic to a six year old?!?!?! I know some kids need it, but still.

    Regarding the pediatric bipolar, I think a lot of drug companies were fined for licensing mood stabilizers/atypical antipsychotics to young children. The whole craze seems to have been made more dramatic by the drug companies. I really sure there's a better explanation for temper tantrums that labelling them "bipolar". What about ADHD, ODD, meltdowns associated with Aspergers? Why are we labelling them "Bipolar"??? A lot of these kids seem to not be depressed until after they start treatment...what a surprise on those meds. They're the ones that cause problems, we don't even fully know what they do with a childs brain.

    Yes, I know some kids need meds like this, or whatever. I'm not looking to offend anyone. Honest. But do as many need it as are being prescribed?

    That was off topic in a way. But I can kinda see how the drug companies do seem to be taking advantage of mental illnesses, particularly when they prescribe drugs for one that DSM 4 or 5 doesn't list.

  7. #22
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    Quote Otherside View Post
    This is completley irrelevant, but I came across something the other day that ws advertising the use of Abilify (aripiprazole) for the use in childern as young as ten suffering from "pediatric bipolar disorder" (Which according to DSM, doesn't even exist, seems to be different from "adult bipolar" and seems to exist solely in America, although it's now being called "Disruptive temper deregulation disorder, which to be honest, hasn't really been researched) and for even younger childern (six years old) suffering from irritabiliy due to a autistic spectrum disorder. Last I checked, Abilify was an antipsychotic? Why would you give an antipsychotic to a six year old?!?!?! I know some kids need it, but still.

    Regarding the pediatric bipolar, I think a lot of drug companies were fined for licensing mood stabilizers/atypical antipsychotics to young children. The whole craze seems to have been made more dramatic by the drug companies. I really sure there's a better explanation for temper tantrums that labelling them "bipolar". What about ADHD, ODD, meltdowns associated with Aspergers? Why are we labelling them "Bipolar"??? A lot of these kids seem to not be depressed until after they start treatment...what a surprise on those meds. They're the ones that cause problems, we don't even fully know what they do with a childs brain.

    Yes, I know some kids need meds like this, or whatever. I'm not looking to offend anyone. Honest. But do as many need it as are being prescribed?

    That was off topic in a way. But I can kinda see how the drug companies do seem to be taking advantage of mental illnesses, particularly when they prescribe drugs for one that DSM 4 or 5 doesn't list.
    This whole concept is a bit new to me as I was more-so referring to the treatment of anxiety disorders in adults in my previous posts, but at any rate I'll try to respond because I think you bring up some interesting points about how the pharma sector operates.

    I wasn't really sure what Abilify was formally approved for in the US beyond adult Schizophrenia and Bipolar Mania so this is one I had to look into. Looking this one up, it comes up as being FDA approved for:

    Schizophrenia (ages 13 and older)
    Maintaining stability in schizophrenia
    Acute mania/mixed mania (ages 10 and older)
    Bipolar maintenance
    Depression (adjunct)
    Autism-related irritability in children ages 6 to 17

    Whoa, okay so that's a lot of formal indications for one med! I'm assuming for a medication to be advertised in the US it needs FDA marketing approval for that application. Advertising prescription medication is banned where I live which I think is better, but the US certainly does have this big med culture thing going.

    I wouldn't want to give my layman opinion on the intricacies of pediatric bipolar disorder nor irritability related to autism because I simply don't know enough about those disorders. I would generally agree that Abilify is too strong of a med to be throwing at most children (let alone some adults) for something that's not apparently severe, but again It would have to be taken into account just how much the individual is suffering and desperate for relief vs are they just mildly disruptive and going to grow out of it? Can a milder medication such a Tenex be exhausted first if absolutely necessary?

    This is a moral dilemma which I hope pediatricians have enough experience with to make the right choice for their patients, and I hope they can make these decisions without being strong-armed by big pharma and the latest 'it' med. Certainly Abilify has been demonstrated to be quite an effective medication for mental disorders on the severe end of the spectrum where it's use is clearly going to be beneficial, but do the benefits really outweigh the potential cons when used as an add-on in moderate depression or in childhood disorders which may be as you mentioned something closer to ADHD or ODD?

    The growing/developing brain is especially sensitive to psych medications. Recall how retroactively they decided to restrict Paroxetine use to 18+ because it ended up increasing the risk of suicidal ideation and irritability in children? Granted Abilify is a completely different type of medication, but as you said it is still new, and we don't really know how it's going to end up affecting kids over the long term, so caution should be advised unless there's a very imperative need for it.

  8. #23
    Equinox's Avatar
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    Quote Otherside View Post
    I'm in an agreement with the first bit. I don't believe mental disorders are genetic (As in you have a definite chance of having it.) Something always has to trigger that. Perphaps genetics mean a person is more likely to "trigger" the disorder, as you put it, "emotions and thoughts that changed there brain chemistry over time". So lets say a person is bullied all through childhood=lots of negative thoughts and emotions, chances are, the disorder will be "triggered".
    I think what you mentioned relates to the Diathesis stress model which asserts that the onset of a disorder results from a blending of one’s genetic and biological vulnerabilities, and the occurrence of a stressful event(s).

  9. #24
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    Quote Chopin12 View Post
    I was told on the other forum not to say this, but Ill go ahead and first say this is just my opinion, im obviously not a doctor nor should you take my word as sound medical advice.


    that being said, anxiety is not a physical disorder. I dont think it has anything to do with your brain chemistry. now hear me out. even if there are tests that show anxiety-sufferers have a different brain chemistry, that doesnt mean that the anxiety came from that. all it has to mean is that their emotions and thoughts changed their brain chemistry over time.
    It actually is a physical disorder and it has a lot to do with brain chemistry. Mental = physical, because the brain is an organ like any other organ that is part of your body. Your thoughts / emotions and perceptions stem from your brain. If their is a disease process occurring in the brain it will disrupt the normal, healthy process of thought / emotions and perceptions. Since the advent of neuroscience it's become clear there's no meaningful distinction between mental and physical.

    Research shows, some people are born with anxious dispositions and react intensely to their environment. Infants and children who have this disposition are at much greater risk of developing anxiety disorders. Many of them turn into adults like us. For many of them there was no change from non-anxious -> to anxious over time, they were inherently anxious in one form or another, ever since they could remember.

    Quote Chopin12 View Post
    anxiety is what you could call a mental disorder. anxiety comes from fear, a basic human emotion. and below that emotion of fear you will find fear-based thoughts. right now, at this very moment, i can choose to think different thoughts and in turn feel different emotions regardless of what my brain composition is.
    What you are implying is that because everything you think and feel is -apparently a choice, the reason why anyone has an anxiety disorder is because they've failed to think and choose their way out of it like everyone else who doesn't have an anxiety disorder. That's another way of saying we're weak of character. That kind of thinking is extremely harmful to anyone suffering from any kind of mental illness. If it were that easy to think your way out of illness, why are we all not recovered yet? I've been like this for 10 years. I don't have the luxury of choice.

    Yes anxiety is an emotion everyone experiences, but it's on a spectrum. When you get to an extreme end of the spectrum that causes distress and dysfunction, you have an illness. Nobody chooses to be ill.

    You don't really have as much choice over your emotion and thought processes as you think you do either. Studies have shown that a brain scan can detect what someone will 'choose' before they are even consciously aware they have even made a choice. So technically there's no such thing as willfully making a choice, every cognitive process we have is just responses to internal and external environmental triggers. Additionally, the nature of your thoughts and how much they feedback into and influence emotions is variable and limited.


    Quote Chopin12 View Post
    I strongly believe that anxiety is entirely mental and that no medication is needed. In fact, I think using medication in the hopes that its going to solve your anxiety is pointless, its never going to solve what is a mental construct that you yourself have put in place.

    that being said, i also dont have anything against people who use medication, nor do i think they are wrong for it. $hi*, Ive abused plenty of medication over my life and im still okay. my point is dont let anyone make you believe there is something physically wrong with you that can only be treated using pills.
    Since I've addressed mental = physical, medications do have a place in treatment. They're not for everyone but they are another option that should be explored for anyone who has a moderate to severe case of anxiety. There is something physically wrong at the neuroanotomical level in anyone who has a mental illness including anxiety disorders, if you ever actually want to investigate this there are hundreds of research articles free online indicating this. Denying any neuranotomical contribution doesn't help, and in fact invalidates mental illness. Likewise there shouldn't be shame in being ill, since again, it's not a choice. Suggesting that people have put some mental construct in place on their own accord which is making them ill, is essentially turning the blame onto the sufferer, which I'll reiterate, is HARMFUL, because it drags mental illness back to the days when people would tell you to 'get over it' (and sadly some people still do).

  10. #25
    takethebiscuit's Avatar
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    "Additionally, the nature of your thoughts and how much they feedback into and influence emotions is variable and limited."

    That's both true and not true. If it were 100% true then no lawyer would ever be able to frame a case in such a way as to convince a jury of their clients innocence. No prosecutor would be able to frame things in such a way that would convince a jury of someone's guilt. Persuasion wars like in courtrooms up and down the land happen precisely because our thoughts have power over our emotions. We feel our thinking. A lawyer will frame events and evidence in a trial in such a way as to evoke certain thoughts in the mind of a jury. These thoughts then give rise to certain emotions which help sway opinions one way or another. It can also work the other way: emotions causing thoughts.

    Your thinking has a great deal of power over your emotions just as your emotions have a great deal of power over your thinking.

    An anxious person has a panic attack. Emotions happen all over the place. What happens to that anxious person's thinking during that panic attack?

    An anxious person thinks about a panic attack. What happens to that anxious person's emotions as a result of entering into thinking about a panic attack?

    You are right that it is variable and limited. And it's true that there's a huge amount of power in our thinking.


    "You don't really have as much choice over your emotion and thought processes as you think you do either. Studies have shown that a brain scan can detect what someone will 'choose' before they are even consciously aware they have even made a choice. So technically there's no such thing as willfully making a choice, every cognitive process we have is just responses to internal and external environmental triggers."

    In a sense, it's this knowledge that gives us more will choice. If we know that the subconscious processes make decisions in many cases before we are consciously aware of a choice being made then we can consciously take steps to influence our subconscious processes in beneficial ways.

    For example: scientific evidence shows that our opinions can be altered through peer pressure, group feedback etc. It shows that we don't just lie about our opinions to gain favour with the groups we are in. We actively change our opinions if certain peer pressure is applied. Not in all cases but a lot of the time. Now, if this is true then it makes sense for us to consciously surround ourselves with people who already have good opinions about ourselves . We feel down, we talk to the people closest to us and they give us their good opinions of us. We are then influenced by those positive opinions about us and we change our thinking and our feelings about ourselves.

    I may have gone off on one there but basically: the more we know about the nature of persuasion at a conscious or subconscious level, the more we gain the power to influence ourselves.

    Are we in control all the time and is anxiety a choice. No and no. We're human. And because we're human we should never forget the huge amount of power we have to heal ourselves and seek help from others.

    Is this always easy? No, not at all. But there is a lot of hope out there.

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    Bear, couple of weeks ago I went to the doctor and asked this question pretty much. I told him I was having anxiety and I asked him if there was a mild thing to take for it that wasn't a benzo.....for some reason he prescribed celexa....I think maybe he didn't really listen to me because Celexa is an anti-depressant. I told him that I have reservations about trying any more medications because what if it's situational instead of a permanent defect in my brain. His answer was that it's complicated...and he didn't give me a straight answer. Even doctors seem to be somewhat confused by it. Unfortunately I think the burden is very much on the patient to figure it out for themselves. After I started trying Prozac, Paxil, Welbutrin, Effexor, Zoloft....and now being prescribed Celexa....well, my life still has challenges and problems and I think the circumstances in my life contribute to my depression. I've gotten to the point where I don't even use the word depression anymore because it's too vague....I have a huge sense of LOSS, disappointment,....and like I don't have anything to look forward to in life.....to me that isn't the same as depression.....every "negative" thing gets lumped into the term depression. The medication he gave to me the Celexa....I haven't picked it up yet and I may not....when I googled it I read that one of the side effects IS ANXIETY.....definitely not what I need.

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    Quote Misssy View Post
    Bear, couple of weeks ago I went to the doctor and asked this question pretty much. I told him I was having anxiety and I asked him if there was a mild thing to take for it that wasn't a benzo.....for some reason he prescribed celexa....I think maybe he didn't really listen to me because Celexa is an anti-depressant. I told him that I have reservations about trying any more medications because what if it's situational instead of a permanent defect in my brain. His answer was that it's complicated...and he didn't give me a straight answer. Even doctors seem to be somewhat confused by it. Unfortunately I think the burden is very much on the patient to figure it out for themselves. After I started trying Prozac, Paxil, Welbutrin, Effexor, Zoloft....and now being prescribed Celexa....well, my life still has challenges and problems and I think the circumstances in my life contribute to my depression. I've gotten to the point where I don't even use the word depression anymore because it's too vague....I have a huge sense of LOSS, disappointment,....and like I don't have anything to look forward to in life.....to me that isn't the same as depression.....every "negative" thing gets lumped into the term depression. The medication he gave to me the Celexa....I haven't picked it up yet and I may not....when I googled it I read that one of the side effects IS ANXIETY.....definitely not what I need.
    Odd, two appointments ago my PDoc said that Celexa helps anxiety, and he was confident that it would help it. (I was only on it for depression though) I know it's used in panic disorder, but I don't know if it's used in GAD/SAD.

    I was also told Prozac could help my anxiety when I was prescribed that.

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    I just think you have a choice. Im not saying we're weak of character. Its actually more strengthening to believe you have a choice than to believe you are powerless.
    “A Caterpie may change into a Butterfree, but the heart that beats inside it remains the same.” — Brock

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    Oh, otherside I didn't know that, maybe Celexa does help with anxiety. I haven't read a whole lot about it but I just saw that ANXIETY is a side effect of it.

  15. #30
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    Quote Chopin12 View Post
    I was told on the other forum not to say this, but Ill go ahead and first say this is just my opinion, im obviously not a doctor nor should you take my word as sound medical advice.


    that being said, anxiety is not a physical disorder. I dont think it has anything to do with your brain chemistry. now hear me out. even if there are tests that show anxiety-sufferers have a different brain chemistry, that doesnt mean that the anxiety came from that. all it has to mean is that their emotions and thoughts changed their brain chemistry over time.

    anxiety is what you could call a mental disorder. anxiety comes from fear, a basic human emotion. and below that emotion of fear you will find fear-based thoughts. right now, at this very moment, i can choose to think different thoughts and in turn feel different emotions regardless of what my brain composition is. I strongly believe that anxiety is entirely mental and that no medication is needed. In fact, I think using medication in the hopes that its going to solve your anxiety is pointless, its never going to solve what is a mental construct that you yourself have put in place.

    that being said, i also dont have anything against people who use medication, nor do i think they are wrong for it. $hi*, Ive abused plenty of medication over my life and im still okay. my point is dont let anyone make you believe there is something physically wrong with you that can only be treated using pills.
    I agree with your opinion. You make a lot of good points.
    And IDK why this offended anyone over on the other site.

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