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  1. #31
    pam's Avatar needs more cowbell
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    Quote Chopin12 View Post
    well, someone was upset that i was telling another person that they didnt need pills

    id never say theres anything wrong with taking them, and if they help then thats great, i just dont think theyre necessary or a final 'cure'
    Yeah, they aren't a cure. They just cover the symptoms....that's IF they work I mean...and beyond just a placebo effect that doesn't last for more than a few months. Which leads to trying another, then another, etc. I think its sad, because I believe the rate of success is not nearly as much as is advertised. They need to improve the drugs. Or try something else like therapy which is what I prefer.

  2. #32
    pam's Avatar needs more cowbell
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    Quote takethebiscuit View Post
    One working definition of "anxiety" amongst therapists is: "an over arousal of the autonomic nervous system". This over arousal can be caused by many things including: thoughts, emotions such as guilt, regret, shame, remorse, anger etc or some sort of imbalance within the brain of the individual. If anxiety is an over arousal of the autonomic nervous system then it is very much a physical disorder as well as a mental disorder. Even if anxiety were caused by thinking alone there would still be a physical, felt presence of anxiety within the body.

    It makes sense to look at both mental and physical causes for anxiety. It makes sense to look at the treatment option of medication given the research backing up the use of such meds. People are not machines and we do need more focus on treating people as individual human beings rather than just telling them to pop a pill and acting as if that somehow automatically makes things better. But meds clearly have a place in treatment plans for anxiety disorders.
    About the "over-arousal of the autonomic nervous system," couldn't it also be that yes, that is the physical state at a given time, but that it's the response, not the stimulus? (Actually I see you list outside stimuli that could've caused this reaction). So, I guess my point is that just because a symptom manifests physically, that doesn't mean it's necessarily a physical problem? With a lot of depression and anxiety, I believe it's purely psychologically caused, and that's where your nice post on persuasion would come in to fix it, rather than medications.

    Not saying you think this way, but I just don't understand why anyone would think psychological problems aren't psychological. And that they are purely physical. I've been told IDK how many times that I have an imbalance--really? Because no one's ever checked! And then a year ago they checked something in my blood that would show I forget which hormones or chemicals that are related to depression or anxiety, but I came back normal. No surprise to me.

    My view is that most or a lot of us have normal brains, but they're temporarily influenced by many things (such as the gin & tonic I'm about to have) but it doesn't mean there's a disorder of the brain. But I think no one believes this anymore. Seems like people would rather have a chemical imbalance. Not me, lol.

  3. #33
    Antidote's Avatar Rude & Shouty
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    Quote takethebiscuit View Post
    That's both true and not true. If it were 100% true then no lawyer would ever be able to frame a case in such a way as to convince a jury of their clients innocence. No prosecutor would be able to frame things in such a way that would convince a jury of someone's guilt. Persuasion wars like in courtrooms up and down the land happen precisely because our thoughts have power over our emotions. We feel our thinking. A lawyer will frame events and evidence in a trial in such a way as to evoke certain thoughts in the mind of a jury. These thoughts then give rise to certain emotions which help sway opinions one way or another. It can also work the other way: emotions causing thoughts.
    Actually, as a result of the new neuroscientific research that has come out in the past decade, there is a strong argument that the legal system needs to be reformed, with a push towards emphasising rehabilitation rather than punishment since technically 'accountability' is a shaky concept. But just because neurologically speaking, there is no real thing as accountability, this doesn't mean that behaviour isn't punishable; reprimanding and rehabilitation is still necessary to manipulate future behavior or circumstances and protect the general public. This is an easy to read (but long) article that explains more about neuroscience and it's implications for the legal system: http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/...-trial/308520/

    Quote takethebiscuit View Post
    In a sense, it's this knowledge that gives us more will choice. If we know that the subconscious processes make decisions in many cases before we are consciously aware of a choice being made then we can consciously take steps to influence our subconscious processes in beneficial ways.

    For example: scientific evidence shows that our opinions can be altered through peer pressure, group feedback etc. It shows that we don't just lie about our opinions to gain favour with the groups we are in. We actively change our opinions if certain peer pressure is applied. Not in all cases but a lot of the time. Now, if this is true then it makes sense for us to consciously surround ourselves with people who already have good opinions about ourselves . We feel down, we talk to the people closest to us and they give us their good opinions of us. We are then influenced by those positive opinions about us and we change our thinking and our feelings about ourselves.

    I may have gone off on one there but basically: the more we know about the nature of persuasion at a conscious or subconscious level, the more we gain the power to influence ourselves.
    No you didn't go off on a tangent there. I agree because it ties into what I was saying, and it makes perfect sense. The crux of rehabilitation whether it be for criminals or people who are ill with any kind of disease - is to change the environment so that they are triggered less. Environmental changes involve just as you implied; social support along with innumerable other things (including medication for some). Environmental influences can be manipulated to lower stress hormones and / or spur healthy behaviour which is an indirect way of harnessing 'control' over your behaviour. Though this still poses a problem as some people are limited in how much initiative they are capable of (again due to an inherent disposition), or access they have to making changes to their environment.

  4. #34
    Antidote's Avatar Rude & Shouty
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    Quote pam View Post
    Not saying you think this way, but I just don't understand why anyone would think psychological problems aren't psychological. And that they are purely physical. I've been told IDK how many times that I have an imbalance--really? Because no one's ever checked! And then a year ago they checked something in my blood that would show I forget which hormones or chemicals that are related to depression or anxiety, but I came back normal. No surprise to me.

    My view is that most or a lot of us have normal brains, but they're temporarily influenced by many things (such as the gin & tonic I'm about to have) but it doesn't mean there's a disorder of the brain. But I think no one believes this anymore. Seems like people would rather have a chemical imbalance. Not me, lol.
    There's not yet any official diagnostic blood test for any mental disorders. Even if there was it would probably be crude due to various physiological reasons (blood brain barrier etc). Your blood test doesn't counter evidence from hundreds of studies indicating neurobiological evidence of abnormality in brain disorders.

    Quote Chopin12 View Post
    I just think you have a choice. Im not saying we're weak of character. Its actually more strengthening to believe you have a choice than to believe you are powerless.
    It's not a strength when you imply everyone who has an anxiety disorder of any duration, has a choice, yet somehow failed to beat their condition and has languished for years instead.

  5. #35
    Chopin12's Avatar
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    it is a strength, youre just looking at it the wrong way

    just because we have anxiety doesnt mean we failed. it doesnt mean we're weaker or more worthless than people who dont have it. we're just dealing with different things.

    every single person in the world has problems, even if it appears they dont on the outside. we are dealing with the common problem called anxiety. if you believe you have it because youre born that way, because of your genetics, or because of environmental factors you're doing two things

    youre rendering yourself powerless over your thoughts and feelings, and youre shifting the responsibility from yourself to the outside world. its easier to believe we're a victim than to realize we've been doing it to ourselves. Its easy to play the victim. People do it all the time, and we love doing it. Im no different, Ive done it many times and continue to do so. But I feel that in order to grow we need to quit playing the victim game. Only I am responsible for my thoughts and feelings, in reality. Even if sometimes I choose to believe some external force did this to me.

    but you dont have to feel like you failed, or that youre weak. thats just a subjective judgement. I feel great about the fact that I have had anxiety, because its a result of my perceptions. And I see tremendous value in my perception of the world, because of the things Ive allowed myself to be honest about and see. maybe the perceptions I have that give me anxiety aren't valuable, and if I had been a different person.. walked a different path.. I might not have anxiety, but I might not have my valuable perceptions, either.
    “A Caterpie may change into a Butterfree, but the heart that beats inside it remains the same.” — Brock

  6. #36
    Antidote's Avatar Rude & Shouty
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    Quote Chopin12 View Post
    it is a strength, youre just looking at it the wrong way

    just because we have anxiety doesnt mean we failed. it doesnt mean we're weaker or more worthless than people who dont have it. we're just dealing with different things.
    So you agree that those with anxiety disorders are dealing with a different thing to those w/o anxiety disorders? Then we agree. Because we are born different with different genes / dispositions and susceptibilities. Other people without anxiety disorders don't deal with this level of anxiety. They have lower levels. So they cannot be compared to those with anxiety disorders. That's what I'm saying.

    Quote Chopin12 View Post
    every single person in the world has problems, even if it appears they dont on the outside. we are dealing with the common problem called anxiety. if you believe you have it because youre born that way, because of your genetics, or because of environmental factors you're doing two things

    youre rendering yourself powerless over your thoughts and feelings, and youre shifting the responsibility from yourself to the outside world.
    Just because I'm acknowledging anxiety has a biologically cause doesn't mean we can't manipulate our environment and then our behaviour. I explained this in my reply to takethebiscuit. Manipulating the external environment also manipulates the internal environment of our bodies.

    Quote Chopin12 View Post
    its easier to believe we're a victim than to realize we've been doing it to ourselves. Its easy to play the victim. People do it all the time, and we love doing it. Im no different, Ive done it many times and continue to do so. But I feel that in order to grow we need to quit playing the victim game. Only I am responsible for my thoughts and feelings, in reality. Even if sometimes I choose to believe some external force did this to me.
    You pretty much spelled it out, you think we have 'victim mentality' and are feeling sorry for ourselves. We are to blame for turning out this way i.e. we are weak. Apparently you find it helpful to conceptualise your condition this way. Speak for yourself.

    Quote Chopin12 View Post
    but you dont have to feel like you failed, or that youre weak. thats just a subjective judgement. I feel great about the fact that I have had anxiety, because its a result of my perceptions. And I see tremendous value in my perception of the world, because of the things Ive allowed myself to be honest about and see. maybe the perceptions I have that give me anxiety aren't valuable, and if I had been a different person.. walked a different path.. I might not have anxiety, but I might not have my valuable perceptions, either.
    So many contradictions...

  7. #37
    Chopin12's Avatar
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    there were no contradictions, id rather you point them out specifically if youre going to say that at all

    and i think you are misunderstanding the other things i said

    yes, we are dealing with a different problem than those that dont feel anxiety. thats obvious. i didnt think there was any debate about that. I never once said that our problems were the same as others. but that DOESNT mean that I agree that we're dealing with anxiety because we are born with different genes. we may have different dispositions, thoughts, attitudes, and so on. but still, i dont think of it the same way as you. person A is not born with disposition and attitude A. Its just not like that.

    And you can try to manipulate your environment all you want, and come back and tell me if you were succesful in eliminating your anxiety. If you are, then more power to you. But Im of the thought that anxiety is purely mental. Even if I had a better environment than the one Im in now, my anxiety would not be cured in time. It would take me changing my thoughts. And right off the bat you can see that changing your environment is less reliable than changing your thoughts. Not everyone CAN change their environment to a better one. Not everyone is in that position. Its more effective to go to the source of the problem, our minds.

    About the victim thing, Im not sure what point youre trying to make. What I said was that its easier to blame our anxiety on externals instead of realizing we have the power to change it. Again, I didnt say we are weak. We are strong because we have the power to change our lives. The fact that we still have anxiety DOESNT make us weak, thats YOUR judgement.
    “A Caterpie may change into a Butterfree, but the heart that beats inside it remains the same.” — Brock

  8. #38
    Chopin12's Avatar
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    furthermore, this isnt a contest, im just sharing my thoughts. if we disagree, thats okay. calm down.
    “A Caterpie may change into a Butterfree, but the heart that beats inside it remains the same.” — Brock

  9. #39
    Antidote's Avatar Rude & Shouty
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    Quote Chopin12 View Post
    there were no contradictions, id rather you point them out specifically if youre going to say that at all
    You stated we are acting like victims, yet we are not weak. Yet acting like victims implies we are weak. Do you see the contradiction?

    Quote Chopin12 View Post
    and i think you are misunderstanding the other things i said

    yes, we are dealing with a different problem than those that dont feel anxiety. thats obvious. i didnt think there was any debate about that. I never once said that our problems were the same as others. but that DOESNT mean that I agree that we're dealing with anxiety because we are born with different genes. we may have different dispositions, thoughts, attitudes, and so on. but still, i dont think of it the same way as you. person A is not born with disposition and attitude A. Its just not like that.

    And you can try to manipulate your environment all you want, and come back and tell me if you were succesful in eliminating your anxiety. If you are, then more power to you. But Im of the thought that anxiety is purely mental. Even if I had a better environment than the one Im in now, my anxiety would not be cured in time. It would take me changing my thoughts. And right off the bat you can see that changing your environment is less reliable than changing your thoughts. Not everyone CAN change their environment to a better one. Not everyone is in that position. Its more effective to go to the source of the problem, our minds.
    I'm not going to repeat everything I've said since I've covered this already. It's clear your conjecture is not informed by science and you are not receptive to it.

    Quote Chopin12 View Post
    About the victim thing, Im not sure what point youre trying to make. What I said was that its easier to blame our anxiety on externals instead of realizing we have the power to change it. Again, I didnt say we are weak. We are strong because we have the power to change our lives. The fact that we still have anxiety DOESNT make us weak, thats YOUR judgement.
    I never said we were weak, I've been arguing against it this whole time. I said your opinions imply weakness, but you don't seem to see the contradictions in your own statements. I think we are strong because like I've said again and again, due to our biological disposition, we have a heavier anxiety burden to carry than most, but we still do it.

    Quote Chopin12 View Post
    furthermore, this isnt a contest, im just sharing my thoughts. if we disagree, thats okay. calm down.
    Like I said before, I find what you imply, harmful. I won't really back down on this issue, because I feel compelled to advocate for it even on deaf ears. What you say is a throwback to when mental illness was the sufferer's fault for having a victim mentality / not getting their act together / lazy etc. That only perpetuates stigma and causes more social ostracism for the mentally ill. Thankfully, neuropsychiatry has progressed since then and there's been a shift in thinking away from what your saying.

  10. #40
    Equinox's Avatar
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    Quote pam View Post
    Yeah, they aren't a cure. They just cover the symptoms....that's IF they work I mean...and beyond just a placebo effect that doesn't last for more than a few months. Which leads to trying another, then another, etc. I think its sad, because I believe the rate of success is not nearly as much as is advertised. They need to improve the drugs. Or try something else like therapy which is what I prefer.
    First of all I want to touch on a few points, I don't see 'covering up the symptoms' as being a bad thing. People take insulin to cover up the symptoms of type 1 diabetes if you want to look at it that way. So long as something relieves symptoms and leads to a more productive life then that's okay in my book.

    With that said there is evidence that psych medications can cause positive long term changes, such as changes in neuroplasticity, for example SSRIs have been shown to enhance BDNF (brain derived-neurotrophic factor) which is less active during depressive states.

    I apologize for the technical speech in the below quote, I just put it here to demonstrate that what goes on during an interaction between a psych med and the brain is a very complex one.

    Clinical and basic researches demonstrate that chronic antidepressant treatment increases the rate of neurogenesis in the adult hippocampus. Antidepressants up-regulate cAMP and the neurotrophin signaling pathways involved in plasticity and survival. In vitro and in vivo data provide direct evidence that the transcription factor, cAMP response element-binding protein (CREB) and the neurotrophin, BDNF are key mediators of the therapeutic response to antidepressants. Depression maybe associated with a disruption of mechanisms that govern cell survival and neuroplasticity in the brain.
    Role of neuroplasticity in individual difference of antidepressants efficacy

  11. #41
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    Acting like victim doesnt make you weak. I believe we are strong, whether you act like a victim or not. Someone acting like a victim doesnt imply weakness, this is again your judgement. There is no contradiction, you cant impose your judgements on my perception and then call it a contradiction.

    I know you never said we are weak. I said that the whole weakness thing is YOUR judgement of my perception. You keep insisting that everything I say implies weakness, but you continually fail to see this is your opinion, not mine.

    And you can differ from my opinion all you want. Find it harmful all you want. Its really okay with me. I will respectfully disagree. Though, I will not continue to point out why because you are copping an attitude without even understanding what Im saying.
    “A Caterpie may change into a Butterfree, but the heart that beats inside it remains the same.” — Brock

  12. #42
    Antidote's Avatar Rude & Shouty
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    I've seen your argument before. This is old territory for me. When you do not acknowledge the biological causes of anxiety you automatically imply it's a character flaw. It looks like you haven't really thought this out. I'm passionate about this area and it fires me up for the reasons I said before. Apologies if you see it as an attitude, but I prefer being this way and educating people (somewhere I hope) in the process.

  13. #43
    Chopin12's Avatar
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    its okay. i dont mean any harm either. just try not to assume you know what someone is saying when you dont. im the one saying it and none of your descriptions match up with what i mean. i never said anything about a character flaw. in fact, i never even went into motivation.

    just because you see what im describing as character flaws, doesnt mean that I do.

    what you think i "automatically imply" with everything i say is your own judgement. not mine.
    “A Caterpie may change into a Butterfree, but the heart that beats inside it remains the same.” — Brock

  14. #44
    Antidote's Avatar Rude & Shouty
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    Quote Chopin12 View Post
    none of your descriptions match up with what i mean. i never said anything about a character flaw.
    Okay i'll simplify it.

    Quote Chopin12 View Post
    anxiety is not a physical disorder. I don't think it has anything to do with your brain chemistry.
    Quote Chopin12 View Post
    anxiety is what you could call a mental disorder.
    These statements indicate you think mental and physical are separate right? And you reject physical causes of anxiety right? So therefore you think anxiety being purely 'mental' comes from faulty thoughts / beliefs (which according to you have no biological component).

    Hence:

    Quote Chopin12 View Post
    even if there are tests that show anxiety-sufferers have a different brain chemistry, that doesnt mean that the anxiety came from that. all it has to mean is that their emotions and thoughts changed their brain chemistry over time.
    This statement implies we brought the anxiety disorders onto ourselves by having faulty thoughts. Correct?

    So you're saying we have faulty thinking that causes > anxiety disorder rather than a biological difference that causes > anxiety disorder. Character pertains to the 'unique mental' qualities of an individual. So it follows that if one develops an anxiety disorder due to faulty thinking, they have a character flaw.

    Please feel free to clarify your position if you still feel misunderstood.

  15. #45
    takethebiscuit's Avatar
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    Quote pam View Post
    About the "over-arousal of the autonomic nervous system," couldn't it also be that yes, that is the physical state at a given time, but that it's the response, not the stimulus? (Actually I see you list outside stimuli that could've caused this reaction). So, I guess my point is that just because a symptom manifests physically, that doesn't mean it's necessarily a physical problem? With a lot of depression and anxiety, I believe it's purely psychologically caused, and that's where your nice post on persuasion would come in to fix it, rather than medications
    Thank you for your post, Pam. It could well be that the physical state at a given time is the response not the stimulus.

    You're right, just because a symptom manifest physically, that doesn't mean it's necessarily a physical problem. A physical problem could be a reflection of an underlying psychological cause but it is also possible to mistake physiological diseases for psychological disorders. Which is why I ask my clients to see their doctors before beginning therapy with me. If I start treating a client based on the idea that what they are experiencing is psychological and it turns out that it's actually a physiological illness, we're in trouble. The client goes to the doctor to rule out physiological causes for what they have been experiencing. Once those causes have been ruled out, it can be assumed that physiological symptoms are reflections of psychological problems and therapy/coaching is the right option for the client.


    My view is that most or a lot of us have normal brains, but they're temporarily influenced by many things (such as the gin & tonic I'm about to have) but it doesn't mean there's a disorder of the brain. But I think no one believes this anymore. Seems like people would rather have a chemical imbalance. Not me, lol.
    You could well be right. I'm against the "pop a pill" culture. I'd rather work with people on psychological problems and help them make progress that way. It just comes down to the duty of care to the client thing again. My personal views about what causes things only matter to a certain extent. If the evidence presented before me is that a client has an imbalance then we have to work with that and I have to hand things over to their doctor.

    The worst thing I've seen is the fact that therapists and doctors are not really listening to their clients. We've been looking for unified theories of therapy and medical causes for anxiety instead of listening more to individual clients to find out what's going on for them.

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