# Outside the Box > Philosophy and Debate >  >  Brexit

## Member11

Looks like hate and fear-mongering won today in the UK  ::(:

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## Otherside

> Looks like hate and fear-mongering won today in the UK



Just woke up to it. And thought shit. 

For what its worth though (I'm remain not leave but still) there's more to it than that. There are good reasons to leave and it isn't simply "immigration" or "racism". There's issues with how the EU has handled finances over the last few years, issues with futures plans of the EU (aka, pay taxes to us, not to the government and we'll tell you how to spend them, or let's build a big European army),and issues with fhe fact that they're trying to (and can) force legislation onto us that we don't want.

I live here, and I don't like the outcome. But believe me when I say it's a lot more complicated than hatred and fear mongering that led to a leave win.

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## L

> Looks like hate and fear-mongering won today in the UK



Things are going to get interesting - I was just in Scotland where everyone was vote remain.

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## Member11

> Just woke up to it. And thought shit. 
> 
> For what its worth though (I'm remain not leave but still) there's more to it than that. There are good reasons to leave and it isn't simply "immigration" or "racism". There's issues with how the EU has handled finances over the last few years, issues with futures plans of the EU (aka, pay taxes to us, not to the government and we'll tell you how to spend them, or let's build a big European army),and issues with fhe fact that they're trying to (and can) force legislation onto us that we don't want.
> 
> I live here, and I don't like the outcome. But believe me when I say it's a lot more complicated than hatred and fear mongering that led to a leave win.



Maybe because I don't live there, but most of the other issues that I saw has nothing to do with the EU. NATO has nothing to do with EU and UK will still be apart of it even after leaving the EU. Also, the UK isn't forced to adopt EU legislation, it can opt-out of any of them, it is why UK was able to keep its own currency. In any case, most of the EU legislation that I know about is about consumer protection, which I thought are really cool, like online privacy protections.

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## Otherside

> Maybe because I don't live there, but most of the other issues that I saw has nothing to do with the EU. NATO has nothing to do with EU and UK will still be apart of it even after leaving the EU. Also, the UK isn't forced to adopt EU legislation, it can opt-out of any of them, it is why UK was able to keep its own currency. In any case, most of the EU legislation that I know about is about consumer protection, which I thought are really cool, like online privacy protections.



Euro was an entirely different issue, and from what I know, any country now looking to join the EU (or if we were to ever rejoin for that matter) has to accept the Euro. Euro of course has had it's own problems, as evidenced by the whole situation in Greece right now (and how that ended up everyone else using Euro). We can be forced to accept legislation - the EU has been trying for a long time to force us to give convicted prisoners the vote, for example. We're being fined for refusing to do so. And fined for not paying taxes to EU on sales of things that are actually illegal to sell in the UK. 

Yes, the consumer protection laws are good, and the EU has done good things such as implenting workers rights, or the privacy protections. What will remain now we're leaving is anyones guess. And yes true, worries about the "Polish coming and stealing our jobs" or whatever the party line was may well have influenced the leave campaign. But don't simply presume that the decision to leave was all due to racism. That's massively incorrect.

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## Member11

> But don't simply presume that the decision to leave was all due to racism. That's massively incorrect.



I don't assume that. Polls before the campaign started and most of the time during, showed remain ahead. The leave campaign's main argument was immigration and that immigrants are coming to take jobs or kill people. I'm not saying that everyone who voted to leave believed that, but it did cause some people to change their minds and given the raise of anti-immigration political parties that is something that can be safely assumed.

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## Otherside

> I don't assume that. Polls before the campaign started and most of the time during, showed remain ahead. The leave campaign's main argument was immigration and that immigrants are coming to take jobs or kill people. I'm not saying that everyone who voted to leave believed that, but it did cause some people to change their minds and given the raise of anti-immigration political parties that is something that can be safely assumed.



Okay, my apologies. Theres a lot of people this morning simply crying "RACISTS". And yeah, it was one of the main arguments, I agree there. Talking to a lot of people who did vote leave though, they didn't seem to vote because of that. It was other reasons that caused them to vote leave. 

Polls did seem to favour remain, as did a lot of the betting shops when I looked last night (very little came from a "remain" bet, meanwhile, you'd win a lot if we leave. Wish I'd put a bet on leave given the amount I could have won.) Other places said it was gonna be 50/50. Was always going to be really close whatever happened. And it is. 

Anyway, interesting to see that this whole debate reached Australia. Suppose you guys are in Eurovision anyway which probably makes you honoury europeans who endure that song contest we have to do for some reason. And no, we don't get the stop being in that bloody song contest now that we're out ffs. Why do we put outselves through Eurovision once a year?

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## Member11

> Anyway, interesting to see that this whole debate reached Australia.



Not really, I'm just a political and law junkie  ::D:

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## Otherside

> Not really, I'm just a political and law junkie



Not trying to argue with you. Sorry if I came across a bit harsh or upset you in anyway.  

Heh, I definatley follow politics WAY more than a lot of people my age.

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## Member11

> Not trying to argue with you. Sorry if I came across a bit harsh or upset you in anyway.



Don't be sorry, you didn't. I like a good debate  ::): 





> Heh, I definatley follow politics WAY more than a lot of people my age.



I'm glad I'm not the only one!  ::D:

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## Member11

> Nigel Farage backtracks on Leave campaign's 'Â£350m for the NHS' pledge hours after result
> 
> Nigel Farage has disowned a pledge to spend Â£350 million of European Union cash on the NHS after Brexit.
> 
> The Ukip leader was asked on ITV’s Good Morning Britain programme whether he would guarantee that the money pledged for the health service during the campaign would now be spent on it.
> 
> Speaking on the morning of the referendum result he however said he had never made any such pledge.
> 
> “No I can’t [guarantee it], and I would never have made that claim. That was one of the mistakes that I think the Leave campaign made,” he said.
> ...



I'm not surprised, the right-wing always lies  ::\:

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## Otherside

> I'm not surprised, the right-wing always lies



Anyone who believed that in the first place was an - excuse my french - absolute fucking idiot. That guys not known for his honesty in the first place over here. And I'm pretty sure he supports privatising are health care. That's great I'm sure if you have an income the size of his. That's not so great if you have an income the size of mine (approx 400 per month), and pills that are relatively essential for me to take in order to be a functioning member of society and well...not ill and pretty damn suicidal/manic and possibly paranoid, and can't get insurance because it's considered to be pre-existing. For all this countries whinging about the NHS, we are grateful to it. 

On a side note, the news is depressing today. Pound is down 10% against Euro. Our stock markets plummeted. The London Finacial Sector might loose access to easy trading with Europe. We just lost our stable credit rating. The union is probably going to split and Scotland will go independent, and I wouldn't be surprised if Northern Ireland joins Ireland. 

Personally, I'm worried about how much my student loan - the interest of which is tied to inflation - is now going to cost me. I'm worried about whether or not I'm going to be able to get a job soon (hey, on the plus side, due to the fact there may not be many, them polish wont be stealing them, right?). I'm worried about whether that NHS will still be around. And I'm pissed off that my generation is going ot be forced to live with a decision that a large majority decided to make for us, when we're the ones who will have to spend the next 70 years living with this, and they still cling to the "we voted for our children" line when we didn't bloody want this (yes, i know there were older voters who voted in, and younger voters who voted out. But the trend was clear.)

So I hope Britain is proud of itself. And when Scotland goes independent, I have every intention of claiming citizenship there (my entire mothers side lives there, and has lived there for a long time. I'm eligable.), taking my degree, and buggering off out of here.

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## Member11

> Anyone who believed that in the first place was an - excuse my french - absolute fucking idiot. That guys not known for his honesty in the first place over here.



But most people doesn't follow politics or even the news, so a lot would have just seen that NHS promise and nothing else, not realising it is a complete lie, and not realising the Â£36 billion loss from leaving the EU.





> ...



I feel your pain  :Hug:  I'm in a similar position. I live on about the same amount, have student loan debt, and I rely on Medicare (Australia's NHS) for my pain meds. It really pisses me off that people like us who rely on these services has to keep as eye out and worry about them getting cut or trashed from these right-wing nutjobs who are unable to think of anyone but themselves. If I had the money that some of these right-wing nuts do, I wouldn't complain about paying taxes, I would setup Anxiety Space clinics all over the world and give out free meds, therapy and GPs to everyone who needs it.

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## L

It feels so weird to me, I know I don't have the same worrired as you. It feels surreal, like the begining of a movie....deep down I feel like it will not happen. I have family and friends in London from Ireland, my friends kid's father is living in England they are all just sitting about with question marks on their heads wondering what's going to happen.....

I would love to see scotland get independence but I highly worry about northern Ireland

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## Otherside

> It feels so weird to me, I know I don't have the same worrired as you. *It feels surreal, like the begining of a movie....deep down I feel like it will not happen.* I have family and friends in London from Ireland, my friends kid's father is living in England they are all just sitting about with *question marks on their heads wondering what's going to happen.....*
> 
> I would love to see scotland get independence but I highly worry about northern Ireland



It doesn't feel real yet. I know it's happening. I'm watching the consequences play out and yet it doesn't seem real that we're going to leaving Europe. It doesn't seem lke it's going to happen. Europe is all I've known, and I don't want to leave that Union. 

I'm fully supportive of Scotland going independent this time round. They were royally fucked over in this vote. I consider myself to be British, but that Union we had feels like it has gone with the vote. Leave voters are angry with Scotland for "not respecting democracy" or for wanting to veto the leave decision, or for looking for some way to stay in the EU whilst England goes. 

They seem unable to realize that actions have consequences.





> But most people doesn't follow politics or even the  news, so a lot would have just seen that NHS promise and nothing else,  not realising it is a complete lie, and not realising the Â£36 billion  loss from leaving the EU.



That's true. I have  no doubt that Farage lied though. Or that ironically, he'd most likely  privatise the NHS were it put into his hands. I struggle to believe that  they didn't know exactly who Nigel Farage was though. Anyone who has  turned on the News at any point will know. As much as he and his party  like to portray themselves as "The Party of the People" and "Just normal  people who go to the pub" - well, thats bollocks. If they ever got a  majority, there is one place that the money in our country will go. And  it is the NHS, and it is certainly not to the working people. He's the  same as those "elitist politicians". He was born with a silver-spoon in  his mouth, he went to a very expensive private school. 





> I feel your pain   I'm in a similar position. I live on about the same amount, have  student loan debt, and I rely on Medicare (Australia's NHS) for my pain  meds. It really pisses me off that people like us who rely on these  services has to keep as eye out and worry about them getting cut or  trashed from these right-wing nutjobs who are unable to think of anyone  but themselves. If I had the money that some of these right-wing nuts  do, I wouldn't complain about paying taxes, I would setup Anxiety Space  clinics all over the world and give out free meds, therapy and GPs to  everyone who needs it.



I've paid my taxes towards it before when I've had to and I've paid  for my pills (there's a flat fee of Â£10 or so you have to pay unless you  have an exemption for prescritpion pills here (which I currently do  because I'm considered to be low income) regardless of whether its a  pack of 500 pills cost Â£1000 each, or 1 pill costing next to nothing)  when I've had to. I'm happy to do so. It keeps a service running that a  lot of people would struggle without. Amazingly, the service needs  money. A lot of other services in this country need money to run too.  Our schools need that money too, so do the roads, so do a lot of things.  Or do these "anti-tax" people think that money pops out of nowhere to  fund all this? Or we can do it all without money?

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## Member11

I can't believe this guy, he seriously thinks UK won't be forced to pay tariffs after brexit?!  :Rofl: 

I also looked up this guy too, and he never created any jobs either and never ran a business, he was just a commodity broker. What a hypocrite.

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## Otherside

> I can't believe this guy, he seriously thinks UK won't be forced to pay tariffs after brexit?! 
> 
> I also looked up this guy too, and he never created any jobs either and never ran a business, he was just a commodity broker. What a hypocrite.



Oh it was a common belief. "The EU needs us! We're too important." Yeah guys, we're not the British Empire anymore, we're just a tiny Island in the middle of the sea. 

Best we hope for is that we get back into that single market and we don't have to pay tarriffs. Of course that is most likely gonna come with conditions. Eg - we have to obey most, if not all, EU laws, and allow free movement of labour for citizens. The movement bit is not going to go down with him. 

And his parties pretty awful. Know its a trend piece, but it'll give you an idea. (That suit though...)

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## Member11

> Best we hope for is that we get back into that single market and we don't have to pay tarriffs. Of course that is most likely gonna come with conditions. Eg - we have to obey most, if not all, EU laws, and allow free movement of labour for citizens. The movement bit is not going to go down with him.



No way, I don't see that happening, as that will piss off the remaining EU members as they have to pay into the EU, and there is no way they will allow the UK get away with not paying tariffs or some form of taxes.

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## Member11

Can't help but to have high respect for Scotland, kick Britain's [BEEP]!  ::

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## Otherside

> No way, I don't see that happening, as that will piss off the remaining EU members as they have to pay into the EU, and there is no way they will allow the UK get away with not paying tariffs or some form of taxes.



Norway and Switzerland already have such a deal In place with the EU. It's possible. 

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## Member11

> Norway and Switzerland already have such a deal In place with the EU. It's possible.



Those deals was made before the EU is what it is now. Plus, I highly doubt the EU will go out of their way to make a deal that benefits only the UK. To keep the EU together, they have to make an example out of the UK and punish it for brexit, to make sure other members think twice before leaving. If they give the UK a great deal, why should the others stay and miss out on their own deal?

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## Otherside

> Those deals was made before the EU is what it is now. Plus, I highly doubt the EU will go out of their way to make a deal that benefits only the UK. To keep the EU together, they have to make an example out of the UK and punish it for brexit, to make sure other members think twice before leaving. If they give the UK a great deal, why should the others stay and miss out on their own deal?



There's also the deal Canada made - CETA - which is a more recent example and gives Canada access to the single market. It could happen, but we would have to make concessions in order to get that access. 

As well as this Merkel has already said there's no need to be particularly nasty to the UK over this. And Germany has a large amount of influence in the EU at the moment. 

Will we actually leave? God knows. Haven't even triggered Article 500 yet. And we won't be able to make a deal if 500 isnt triggered. 

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## Member11

> As well as this Merkel has already said there's no need to be particularly nasty to the UK over this. And Germany has a large amount of influence in the EU at the moment.



Of course she would say that as it would put the EU in a bad light otherwise, e.g. "EU punishes democracy" it sounds so bad and plays into the leave campaign's message. A deal will be made though, but the UK won't get everything it wants and it is going to take awhile to sort out.

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## Otherside

> Of course she would say that as it would put the EU in a bad light otherwise, e.g. "EU punishes democracy" it sounds so bad and plays into the leave campaign's message. A deal will be made though, but the UK won't get everything it wants and it is going to take awhile to sort out.



Agree with you there. Lot of compromise will need to be made.

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## Member11

> Steven Woolfe, a leading member of the European Parliament from the UK Independence Party (UKIP), is in a serious condition in a Strasbourg hospital after an "altercation" during a meeting of UKIP members of parliament, party leader Nigel Farage said.
> 
> "I deeply regret that following an altercation that took place at a meeting of UKIP MEPs this morning that Steven Woolfe subsequently collapsed and was taken to hospital. His condition is serious," Mr Farage said in a statement.
> 
> Mr Farage, who leads UKIP in the European Union (EU) legislature, resumed his overall leadership of the party on Wednesday after his elected successor stood down.
> 
> His departure came after less than three weeks in the job amid factional struggles following the referendum which delivered UKIP's key goal of taking Britain out of the EU.
> 
> A UKIP spokesman said Mr Woolfe had been taken "suddenly ill" in the European Parliament building and had been taken to hospital for tests.
> ...



http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-10-0...n&#39;/7911348

They are beating each other up  ::D:

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## Cuchculan

Is going to be interesting here in Ireland. What with the border with the North of Ireland. If borders become an issue they will have to build the border back up again. I remember what it used to be like. Was a nightmare. Plus movement across that border will be harder too. Even though a lot of Irish people still see the North as been part of Ireland. There were marches on the border the other day. Northern Ireland voted to remain in the EU. They saw the problems it would cause. 

You have England and Wales wanting out. I agree that an example must be made out of the UK. But go easy on the Scottish and people from the North of Ireland. They still love you. I wouldn't give the UK an inch to breathe in. If they are serious about leaving simply wave goodbye and tell them they are no longer wanted. Make them feel as small as they really are. That was their main problem. This idea that they are some kind of world super power. Shame that only they saw it that way. They can make all kinds of excuses for wanting to leave. But they hated the fact that Germany and France were the two big powers within the EU. That always got to them. This thing of free movement just came along and was used by those who wanted out. Open borders too. Look back over the decades and you will see there was always that element within the British government that didn't want to be part of the EU. It has existed since day 1. They always had excuses for wanting away from the EU. So when this came around it was nothing new. Only they used the acts of terrorists to get into the heads of the English public. I would say what was the difference in the late 70's and 80's when the IRA were planting bombs in England? Irish people could simply hop across the water no problems at all. This thing of saying there is a fear of terrorists entering the UK is BS. Open borders would lead to such a thing. Etc etc. More bombing done by the IRA during their time than any Muslim groups that exist today. 

UKIP has jumped on the band wagon. Those two idiots fighting each other were both members. A new leader is to be appointed in UKIP soon. They decided to have a fight over who was to be the next leader. LOL. Racist group of tossers. Who again feed off the fear of the public and Muslims taken over the UK. They were a banned group for years. Skinheads followed them about the place. Neo Nazi lots. Idiots.

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## Otherside

> Is going to be interesting here in Ireland. What with the border with the North of Ireland. If borders become an issue they will have to build the border back up again. I remember what it used to be like. Was a nightmare. Plus movement across that border will be harder too. Even though a lot of Irish people still see the North as been part of Ireland. There were marches on the border the other day. Northern Ireland voted to remain in the EU. They saw the problems it would cause. 
> 
> You have England and Wales wanting out. I agree that an example must be made out of the UK. But go easy on the Scottish and people from the North of Ireland. They still love you. I wouldn't give the UK an inch to breathe in. If they are serious about leaving simply wave goodbye and tell them they are no longer wanted. Make them feel as small as they really are. That was their main problem. This idea that they are some kind of world super power. Shame that only they saw it that way. They can make all kinds of excuses for wanting to leave. But they hated the fact that Germany and France were the two big powers within the EU. That always got to them. This thing of free movement just came along and was used by those who wanted out. Open borders too. Look back over the decades and you will see there was always that element within the British government that didn't want to be part of the EU. It has existed since day 1. They always had excuses for wanting away from the EU. So when this came around it was nothing new. Only they used the acts of terrorists to get into the heads of the English public. I would say what was the difference in the late 70's and 80's when the IRA were planting bombs in England? Irish people could simply hop across the water no problems at all. This thing of saying there is a fear of terrorists entering the UK is BS. Open borders would lead to such a thing. Etc etc. More bombing done by the IRA during their time than any Muslim groups that exist today. 
> 
> UKIP has jumped on the band wagon. Those two idiots fighting each other were both members. A new leader is to be appointed in UKIP soon. They decided to have a fight over who was to be the next leader. LOL. Racist group of tossers. Who again feed off the fear of the public and Muslims taken over the UK. They were a banned group for years. Skinheads followed them about the place. Neo Nazi lots. Idiots.



Remember that it was 50% of us who voted to leave. 50% want to remain. Actually the number is probably a bit larger considering that quite a few people "didn't realize that the leave vote would count, and they just want to get a close remain/leave vote as a protest vote against the government. Idiots. We're being made out to be a country that wants to completely leave, and is fully behind Theresa May's "Hard Brexit" plan, wanting all the europeans and immigrants out and to have a completley 100% white British workforce. That simply isn't the case. Most of us are embarresed by the comments being made by our government right now regarding how Brexit will be handled, or comments being made about foreigners. And most of us are very much aware that we are not a superpower or an empire anymore.

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## Otherside

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...itics-37634338

COME ON SCOTLAND (I actually supported remain in the UK back at the first indyref. Brexit has really fucked me off and changed my entire opinion on this whole thing, I'm just about getting sick of May/English Brexitters not paying attention to Scotland and thinking that Englands opinion is the only on that matters in the entire union.)

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## Member11

http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenter...ard-to-losing/

I feel the interviewer's pain...

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## Otherside

> http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenter...ard-to-losing/
> 
> I feel the interviewer's pain...



It's a common thing here. That's not a one off. Most leave voters I've come across don't seem to understand economics, the UK Constituion, or politics really.

I voted remain and I can name a few laws that I don't particularly like that the EU implemented. On the other hand those workers rights are rather nice, as is free movement (rather middle class, but it is rather cheap to travel across Europe. And easy. They don't really ever to bother to check you between the UK and France half the time), healthcare rights across Europe (well, you're at least guaranteed the same healthcare as a citizen of that particular country), the fact that I can live and work in anywhere in Europe...

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## Member11

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...gh-court-rules

I don't know how anyone didn't see this coming, the ruling is obvious.

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## Otherside

> https://www.theguardian.com/politics...gh-court-rules
> 
> I don't know how anyone didn't see this coming, the ruling is obvious.



I'm pretty surprised it's gone this way tbh. 

Politicians and High Court judges run in the same circles here, and I didn't trust that this (despite being the right thing) would happen. And I still don't trust that this will be upheld by the inevitable appeal. I'll laugh if they drag this to the EU courts as they may well do. 

Also looks like we may have a general at somepoint now. Cant decide if that's going to be a "let's all vote UKIP" into power nightmare of epic proportions or not. 

Apologies for the rambling, I stupidly drank to much coffee this afternoon. 

Now then, can America Trump Britain's stupid vote on November the 33rd or whatever the date was?  

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## Member11

> Politicians and High Court judges run in the same circles here, and I didn't trust that this (despite being the right thing) would happen. And I still don't trust that this will be upheld by the inevitable appeal.



True, but outside the USA, judges do their job correctly for the most part. I would be very surprised if it is overturned on appeal.





> I'll laugh if they drag this to the EU courts as they may well do.



Oh the irony  ::D: 





> Now then, can America Trump Britain's stupid vote on November the 33rd or whatever the date was?



It seems UK and the USA is fighting over the most stupid title  :Tongue:  Australian politics looks so sane in comparison. Gay marriage, tax reform and wages are all the talk here.

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## Otherside

> It seems UK and the USA is fighting over the most stupid title  Australian politics looks so sane in comparison. Gay marriage, tax reform and wages are all the talk here.



Can I just move there, even if you do seem to have stupidly priced mortgage deposits and all eat avocado sandwiches or whatever? The weather is a lot better as well.

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## Member11

> Can I just move there, even if you do seem to have stupidly priced mortgage deposits and all eat avocado sandwiches or whatever? The weather is a lot better as well.



Of course, come on down  ::): 

I'm guessing Australia will be seeing a lot of people from the UK and the USA soon  :Tongue:

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## Member11

I don't agree with this guy at all, but I'm posting it to prove hypocrisy of some people in the right-wing, at the start he went on and on about some pro-remain people having incomplete or incorrect information, and yes he is right about that, but then turns around and proves how little he understands about the court case he is making an video on.

That case is not about overturning Brexit, it was the court saying the government needs to keep parliament in the loop and get parliament to pass the laws that is needed for Brexit, basically restated that only parliament can make the laws and only the government can force the laws. It is one of the most obvious ruling ever made.

Considering that both major parties have agreed that there is no turning back now, any vote in parliament over Brexit is just procedural. Even if somehow the parliament override the Brexit vote, the EU has made it very clear that the UK is no longer welcome. So, the right-wing is getting itself anger over procedural details of Brexit. Does it even matter how Brexit is triggered? What is the different if Brexit is triggered by parliament instead of the government?

Is a minor procedural detail really something to get anger about?

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## Member11

http://ec.europa.eu/growth/sectors/c...mal-testing_en

Look at these evil EU laws, stopping animal testing, so evil!!!  :doh:

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