# Outside the Box > Philosophy and Debate >  >  Internet Privacy

## Koalafan

So in case you have been living under a rock this week there have been significant leaks regarding the NSA and pretty much tracking anything and everything that you do. In case you missed it the programs that where leaked where documents that detailed how Verizon where giving the NSA any and all phone records of all their customers and how a program called prism collects any and all internet info in foreign countries. However there have been reports from other whistleblowers for years (William Binny) that the NSA is sucking in any and all electronic data both abroad and domestically. So what SHOULD be done about this? Are you comfortable living in a world where the government tracks any and all your communications at all periods of the day? Or should their be significant safeguards put into place that help ensure that your privacy online and offline is maintained?

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## Otherside

I once saw something on the simpsons like this. But it was portrayed as a joke. It's prety scary that they do it in real life. I'm not even a US citizen and the most time I've spent over there is two weeks on holiday. It's scary that it seems they're tracking my internet use. Seems to have been happening over here too. Pretty sure that's against European laws. I get investigating someone who you suspect of being a terrorist. Except the majority of people aren't, and even googling "Al Qaeda" does not make you one. Seriously, I can't believe that my government has said "Oh it's nonsense" or "If ypu're a law abiing citizen you have nothing to fear". 

I really am not comfortable living in a world where, regardless of whether America has a pretty powerful military and the largest economy in the world, they feel it's okay to track what I'm up to if so need be. I am not an American citizen, I don't live there, I don't have to obey your laws or pay taxes to you or have anything much to do with you, and I don't see why they feel the right to track me if they so please! I obey the laws over here, but I am *NOT* okay with possibly being tracked and having my data recorded by paranoid politicians in another country that I have spent two weeks in my entire life, or the possibility that I can be arrested for breaking one of America's laws for doing something thats legal here but not there and shipped over to america based on data thats collected by PRISM, when I'm supposed to be protected against this by UK laws and by Europes laws!

Sorry, that turned into a vent. I think that got my opinion of this across. And here I was, thinking we were living in the western-world.

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## Koalafan

^
Oh no need to apologize for the vent at all!  ::D:  This is truly terrifying stuff knowing that the government can track any and all your information (not sure how much spying is going on in the UK though  :Tongue: ). I likes my privacy and I surely do not want the government tracking my info even if it is to catch "terrorists" (whatever the hell that means these days). But sadly I highly doubt people are going to get outraged enough by this and sadly this is only going to get worse over time. The more time we let slip through our fingers the worse the tracking is going to get to the point where we might not be able to turn back the clock =/. So I really hope this stirs a debate right now rather than 10 or 20 years from now where who knows what the NSA is going to be tracking and doing.

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## L

I live under a rock

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## Otherside

> ^
> Oh no need to apologize for the vent at all!  This is truly terrifying stuff knowing that the government can track any and all your information (not sure how much spying is going on in the UK though ). *I likes my privacy and I surely do not want the government tracking my info even if it is to catch "terrorists" (whatever the hell that means these days). But sadly I highly doubt people are going to get outraged enough by this and sadly this is only going to get worse over time.* The more time we let slip through our fingers the worse the tracking is going to get to the point where we might not be able to turn back the clock =/. So I really hope this stirs a debate right now rather than 10 or 20 years from now where who knows what the NSA is going to be tracking and doing.



It is, sadly. There's a lot of the politicians saying that "stopping terrorism comes before privacy" or "We'd be able to stop terrorism a lot more easily if we were able to look at what people do online." I don't do anything illegal online and I have nothing to fear, but how long until some government decides to see which users on the internet are looking at the websites of other politcal parties?

Over here...governments defending it, but theres been accusations that a group over here, GHSQ, have been using Prism as well to get info on UK citizens. It's going to court, I think. 

This has really not been a good week. First of all this, and now the news that there was a secret "blacklist" on here that would stop you from getting a job with some companies if you were deemed to be "part of the green party" or "raised health and safety concerns."

I really do hope that guy doesn't get extradicted to Hong Kong. Seems there isn't such a thing as a "free country" or a "democracy" anymore. I really am ashamed to be a part of this country sometimes.

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## toaster little

I don't think they'll be able to stop anything effectively even if they track everyone's activities online.  People like that aren't going to do much online.

If I wanted to pull a prank on the OP like a trap where a pie is thrown at your face as soon as you step on something on the floor, I wouldn't look it up online so you won't be able to trace it.  I wouldn't even text or call people.

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## Tinkerbell

*What is happening currently is not new. (see below)   And it has always been done under the guise of national/international security.  It always ends up being a big deal when caught and then the finger-pointing begins.  Current polls show that a majority of people would rather feel safe than worry about this kind of snooping.       Very 1984 - Orwell feel.


Carnivore was a system implemented by the Federal Bureau of Investigation that was designed to monitor email and electronic communications. It used a customizable packet sniffer that can monitor all of a target user's Internet traffic. Carnivore was implemented in October 1997.  
**
ECHELON* is a name used in global media and in popular culture to describe a signals intelligence (SIGINT) collection and analysis network operated on behalf of the five signatory states to the UKUSA Security Agreement[1] (Australia, Canada, New Zealand, theUnited Kingdom, and the United States, referred to by a number of abbreviations, including _AUSCANNZUKUS_[1] and _Five Eyes_).[2][3]It has also been described as the only software system which controls the download and dissemination of the intercept of commercial satellite trunk communications.[4]
ECHELON, according to information in the European Parliament document, "On the existence of a global system for the interception of private and commercial communications (ECHELON interception system)" was created to monitor the military and diplomatic communications of the Soviet Union and its Eastern Bloc allies during the Cold War in the early 1960s.[5]

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## WineKitty

^^As stated above, there is nothing new and not sure why this is suddenly "news".  This has been going on for years and years and it's being portrayed in the media as something "new".

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## Otherside

^As much as that is sadly true and probably doesn't surprise me, I'm guessing there's a whole load of hype all of a sudden because an NSA employee has made a run from America, is currently a refugee in Hong Kong and is hoping they won't let him stay there, and he got the press's interest. When it comes down to it, its only going to make the "news" if it's going to paid for by the good old public. Would the response how been the same if it had an 89 year old pensioner who sent an email to the news from her bungalow in Oregon, I wonder?

Nevertheless, regardless of whether it has been happening or not, I don't like it, and I'm pretty sure it's totally illegal over here. And I don't like knowing that an email I sent to someone could very well have been read by a government organization that quite frankly, has nothing to do with me, and has no power over me, as large as the American economy may be, and as much as they may consider themselves to be the world superpower, I still live in Europe. I can just about get it if my own government were to do it. But this is supposed to be peacetime, and America and Britain are not at war. And as it is, I can't exactly vote against the president or the party who's allowing this, since I'm not an American Citizen.

At the very least, I can make an attempt at kicking the prime minister over here out of power, and somehow, I don't think he's going to be staying for much longer.

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## Koalafan

> ^^As stated above, there is nothing new and not sure why this is suddenly "news".  This has been going on for years and years and it's being portrayed in the media as something "new".



While this is nothing new and has been going on for awhile, it by no means makes it okay and is still extremely alarming. This isnt about how long this has been going on but if we want to live in a world (which most likely already exists) in which the government monitors and tracks anything and everything we do. People HAVE to be outraged by this if anything is ever going to change. Right now we have a tiny window in which people are pissed off and its still fresh in our minds. If something doesnt get done, this is only going to get worse and worse and the NSA is going to go back to doing exactly what its doing now except even more pervasive than before.

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## WineKitty

> While this is nothing new and has been going on for awhile, it by no means makes it okay and is still extremely alarming. This isnt about how long this has been going on but if we want to live in a world (which most likely already exists) in which the government monitors and tracks anything and everything we do. People HAVE to be outraged by this if anything is ever going to change.





Did I say it "makes it okay"??  No,  I didn't.

"_...it's sad but hardly surprising. On the fear of 9/11 the so-called "Patriot Act" was rushed through and is seemingly the one thing Reps and Dems agree on as no one has done a damn thing to repeal it....although I can think of a few leaders that have been vocally against it.

This is a huge failing for Obama. He hasn't tried to repeal it, but rather expanded on it. This and his inaction of Guantanamo Bay should be what people are talking about rather than cell phones, teleprompters and IRS line dancing. But, oddly, the same people that will skewer Obama over a teleprompter seem fine with the Patriot Act.

But, I have little doubt had it been a Romney administration this would have been one whit different.

The Patriot Act is about the most unpatriotic thing ever passed--passed in haste 45 days post 9/11, on the fear of Americans. Bush created the monster but Obama continues to feed the same monster...."

An excerpt of a post I made on the same subject on another forum.
_




> *Right now we have a tiny window in which people are pissed off* and its still fresh in our minds. If something doesnt get done, this is only going to get worse and worse and the NSA is going to go back to doing exactly what its doing now except even more pervasive than before..



Sorry, I don't agree that people have only now become aware of this or have been "pissed off" about it.  It's merely a recent political ploy to use against Obama by the right, another "scandal"... :: 

Here is an article that shows people weren't happy about this years ago but nothing changed.  I don't like it either.  I hate the Orwellian named "PATRIOT ACT" that started all this crap.   Bush began the stripping away of personal freedoms and Obama has extended it rather than changed anything.  I was outraged about this YEARS ago but the same douchebags keep getting voted into Congress despite what I think.

http://yahoo.usatoday.com/news/washi...5-10-nsa_x.htm





> The National Security Agency has been secretly collecting the phone call records of tens of millions of Americans, using data provided by AT&T, Verizon and BellSouth, people with direct knowledge of the arrangement told USA TODAY.
> 
> The NSA program reaches into homes and businesses across the nation by amassing information about the calls of ordinary Americans â most of whom aren't suspected of any crime.



This may be news to some but not to me and my outrage has calmed a bit since the early 2000s when we gave up personal freedoms in the name of security.  Sorry, hard to sustain "outrage" for 12 years.  I haven't liked the direction this country has been going for a long, long time.  It doesn't "Make it okay".  But people continue to elect the same ones to Congress and therefore NOTHING changes.   This might be a "fresh" story to you---but not to millions of people who were outraged about this for over a decade.

You want things to really change?  Then don't elect the same group of people over and over and expect things to be different.

I want to see the abolishment of political parties, end of lobbyists, the end of representative government which has outlived its usefulness and personal liberties restored.  But I concede that most of America doesn't share this with me.  

So exactly what do you plan to do to channel your outrage into change?  I would love to hear your suggestions?

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## Tinkerbell

I agree with WineKitty, no one has said this is okay, we simply stated a fact that this has been going on for years.  The NSA was created in 1952 under Truman and this type of surveillance has been going on since then, always under the guise of protecting the US.  Plenty of people are and have been outraged, The American Civil Liberties Union has filed lawsuits under 4th Amendment Rights as has EFF, the Electronic Frontier Foundation - civil liberties organization that has filed a class action lawsuit against AT&T for spying against US citizens.  And you can bet that now all the news organizations, liberal and conservative, will be having a field day with this.  Have you ever just googled your name, real or internet user, and read what pops up?  Does that also concern you?

Edit: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...6tX9b7jUBxk2xw

Took me exactly 15 seconds to find this.

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## Otherside

I just found myself on an online listing site, address, who I live with, what's even more disturbing is that they've put "Age Guide 16-20" beside it and somebody could potentially see what court judgements I had against me (I have none). They want me to pay to get the full info about me. [BEEP] that, I'm emailing them and quoting a couple of laws and demanding to know what they have on me.

Says at the bottom they know this because I registered to vote...

Edit-Potentially, from a sample page of what you'd get if you paid, there's enough info on there for someone to steal my ID. Looks like I'm getting my name off there. 

Still, scary what you can find about yourself.

Edit-They are joking if they think I'm going to register, giving more info about myself.

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## life

otherside in the uk you have to be careful which registrar of voters you belong to, heres a link id change it if i was you http://www.aboutmyvote.co.uk/faq/reg...g_to_vote.aspx

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## Koalafan

> Did I say it "makes it okay"??  No,  I didn't.
> 
> "_...it's sad but hardly surprising. On the fear of 9/11 the so-called "Patriot Act" was rushed through and is seemingly the one thing Reps and Dems agree on as no one has done a damn thing to repeal it....although I can think of a few leaders that have been vocally against it.
> 
> This is a huge failing for Obama. He hasn't tried to repeal it, but rather expanded on it. This and his inaction of Guantanamo Bay should be what people are talking about rather than cell phones, teleprompters and IRS line dancing. But, oddly, the same people that will skewer Obama over a teleprompter seem fine with the Patriot Act._



_

Well then I apologize and rather concede that I misread your intentions in your last post . But yes I absolutely agree that people should of been outraged by the patriot act, and the same with the bush wiretaps back in '06. And Obama has done jack squat and has actually expanded these programs under his watch. And of course the repubs who thought it was fine under bush are outraged under obama and vice versa withe the dems (even if both parties still largely agree with the programs).








 WineKitty
					

The Patriot Act is about the most unpatriotic thing ever passed--passed in haste 45 days post 9/11, on the fear of Americans. Bush created the monster but Obama continues to feed the same monster...."

An excerpt of a post I made on the same subject on another forum.



_



> Sorry, I don't agree that people have only now become aware of this or have been "pissed off" about it.  It's merely a recent political ploy to use against Obama by the right, another "scandal"...
> 
> Here is an article that shows people weren't happy about this years ago but nothing changed.  I don't like it either.  I hate the Orwellian named "PATRIOT ACT" that started all this crap.   Bush began the stripping away of personal freedoms and Obama has extended it rather than changed anything.  I was outraged about this YEARS ago but the same douchebags keep getting voted into Congress despite what I think.
> 
> http://yahoo.usatoday.com/news/washi...5-10-nsa_x.htm
> 
> 
> 
> This may be news to some but not to me and my outrage has calmed a bit since the early 2000s when we gave up personal freedoms in the name of security.  Sorry, hard to sustain "outrage" for 12 years.  I haven't liked the direction this country has been going for a long, long time.  It doesn't "Make it okay".  But people continue to elect the same ones to Congress and therefore NOTHING changes.   This might be a "fresh" story to you---but not to millions of people who were outraged about this for over a decade.



Oh I should of made known I have been WELL aware of the privacy concerns that have been raised by the patriot act and have long suspected that (from previous NSA whistleblowers like William Binney for instance) that the NSA sucks up any and all of your info. Im kind of a nerd when it comes to privacy issues and our government  :Tongue: . And yes I completely agree that it's incredibly easy to become jaded with an issue like this where it seems things only get worse and worse. But right now there is a brief window where people are engaged and getting something to change is actually (if only slightly) possible. Of course theres a massive chance that nothing is going to change and things only get worse (like obviously it has), but a debate is happening right now and its hard to pass that chance up. When that window is gone the only chance to even attempt to change things is well...during the next creepy NSA leaks that people get outraged about. Things might not have changed when the patriot act and the bush wiretaps leak but that doesn't mean with 100% certainty that things won't change  ::): .






> You want things to really change?  Then don't elect the same group of people over and over and expect things to be different.
> 
> 
> 
> I want to see the abolishment of political parties, end of lobbyists, the end of representative government which has outlived its usefulness and personal liberties restored.  But I concede that most of America doesn't share this with me.



Now this is something I can get on board with and is actually something I have long advocated  :Tongue: . I absolutely think that the internet is the wave of government of the future and am appalled by the whole representative thing. Hell, I think even the idea of a "president" is archaic and outdated. Especially when the only type of people that can run are either A) extremely wealthy or B) extreme sell outs.





> So exactly what do you plan to do to channel your outrage into change?  I would love to hear your suggestions?



Well just talking about it is always the first step  :Tongue: . I'm absolutely not guaranteeing that anything is going to change but seeing how Im crippled with anxiety and depression talking is about as far as Im getting  :: . But just making sure that the public stays engaged with the issue is always the hard part. But of course I have always toyed with the idea of a digital bill of rights that applies to our online life. Our privacy laws NEED to be updated for the 21st century, but this is something we're obviously going to have to fight for. While of course it seems like an almost impossible task to turn this ship around on our privacy its not totally impossible and miracles can happen. But if I just say nothing and do nothing...well then I guarantee that nothing is going to happen  :Tongue: . So sorry for the rant! But this is a great debate area!  ::D:

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## Koalafan

> I agree with WineKitty, no one has said this is okay, we simply stated a fact that this has been going on for years.  The NSA was created in 1952 under Truman and this type of surveillance has been going on since then, always under the guise of protecting the US.  Plenty of people are and have been outraged, The American Civil Liberties Union has filed lawsuits under 4th Amendment Rights as has EFF, the Electronic Frontier Foundation - civil liberties organization that has filed a class action lawsuit against AT&T for spying against US citizens.  And you can bet that now all the news organizations, liberal and conservative, will be having a field day with this.  Have you ever just googled your name, real or internet user, and read what pops up?  Does that also concern you?
> 
> Edit: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...6tX9b7jUBxk2xw
> 
> Took me exactly 15 seconds to find this.



Oh! As I mentioned to Winekitty I am very aware of, and have long debated, privacy concerns...especially when it comes to google  :Tongue: . Right now I actually use duckduckgo for most of my searches and have recently tanked my gmail account and yes I have googled myself plenty of times  :Tongue: . Hell I would use TOR as my browser if it wasnt so slow =/. And in regards to wiretapping, I mean the US government has been wiretapping since the 1920's when they where trying to find bootleggers and moonshiners  :Tongue: . So this has been a very longstanding issue that has slowly progressed through time. So yes this is definitely not a new issue by any stretch of the imagination but the argument I was trying to make is that the average american who doesnt follow this stuff as much as we do that this comes off as a "shock". Most americans are still extremely naive and ignorant about to what extent the government tracks their online and electronic info and its good that they are getting informed about it atleast!

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## Tinkerbell

I agree with you, Koalafan, that most people are not aware of what is already out there about themselves, and they should be.  I'm all for people being informed as long as it is factual, and not fear mongering.  And I agree that the government is just as guilty in promoting fear mongering, it is what they use to justify their actions.  And if we can do nothing more than keep the the information out there, then that is what the general populace can do.    As far as Snowden is concerned - one man's traitor is another man's patriot, just depends which side you fall on.

*They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.  Ben Franklin - 1775*

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## Skippy

They should keep their damn noses out of peoples business. But then it's a very human thing that if anyone in power thinks they can get away with anything at all, they'd do it. I hope one day we don't really have gov's anymore and power and wealth become a thing of the past, where all people are equal and have a say in their communities......I do think such will happen one day when they step too far over their bounds to be ignored. The human race is still very young like a child, so there's still lots of room for development yet.
I just dunno why people are like sheep and need control....someone above them....Equality is what we need.

To me, No one, not even God (I don't believe in such, but for example) has any say or control over me. I run my life, I don't need strength from any higher power, it all comes from me. I don't need an afterlife or to live forever ether. 

But not to rant or stray from topic, yeah, I think their spying is disgusting and it seems the more time goes on, the more liberties they take
with people's rights and privacy.....how sad....

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## Sagan

When it comes to business emails, etc., most companies store and monitor  emails, etc. constantly. Some monitor keystrokes, as well, although  that is less common. Anything you do on a company's network can be  monitored by the IT folks at any time. It is, after all the company's  hardware and network, and there are even data storage requirements  demanded by law in many cases. The same is true for government work  environments. It's all stored and accessible and for long periods of  time, even in perpetuity in some cases.  

If you are on a network, network admins have and can use the  capability to monitor transactions on that network anytime, including  personal use of that network. Anyone working on a network computer  system should assume that everything they do on that network can and may  be stored and examined by the company or organization.  

Outside of those environment, everyone should keep in mind that  anything transmitted beyond your own personal computer might be  intercepted, stored, or examined. Illegal or not, right or not, what you  send out is beyond your control as soon as you send it. If you think of  it that way, you'll always create and send information in a way that is  safe.  

The same is true of even emails, etc. you send to friends and  acquaintances. Any of those can forward your email to anyone they wish,  store it on their own computers, print it out, and share it in any way.  You lost control of it the moment you clicked "Send." If you email  someone at their workplace, all of the caveats mentioned above in the  section on corporations and organizations apply.  

If you use Google, Facebook, and other services, including online  forums and other websites, anything you search for or post, including  what is described as private messaging, is no longer secure or private.  It is stored, recorded, and can be examined by others. It can be sold,  broadcast, or used in other ways, all based on the privacy and terms of  service policies of the individual websites. If you haven't read the  privacy statements or terms of service agreements you accepted, you  might be shocked at what is in those agreements and statements. You  should consider everything you do anywhere on the Internet to be public  information, because it is, to be quite frank. Those private messages,  along with everything you do on any Internet site *are* available  to site administrators, if they wish to access them. Everything you do  on any site is recorded as data, and may be used pretty much anyway the  site administrators want to use it. It's their system, and you probably  agreed to their sweeping, broad terms of service, without even looking  at them. 

Beyond that, anonymity on the Internet is almost impossible to  maintain without great effort. It can be done, but few people take those  steps. You can encrypt emails and documents securely, but it's a lot of  work and a pain in the [BEEP] for the recipients, frankly. Unless you are  willing to go to the lengths required, you should understand that  anything can be traced back to you and your individual device, if there  is the desire, need, and capability to do so by people who want to do  that. More people than you know have that desire, need, and capability.

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## WineKitty

> Oh! As I mentioned to Winekitty I am very aware of, and have long debated, privacy concerns...especially when it comes to google . Right now I actually use duckduckgo for most of my searches and have recently tanked my gmail account and yes I have googled myself plenty of times . Hell I would use TOR as my browser if it wasnt so slow =/. And in regards to wiretapping, I mean the US government has been wiretapping since the 1920's when they where trying to find bootleggers and moonshiners . So this has been a very longstanding issue that has slowly progressed through time. So yes this is definitely not a new issue by any stretch of the imagination but the argument I was trying to make is that the average american who doesnt follow this stuff as much as we do that this comes off as a "shock". Most americans are still extremely naive and ignorant about to what extent the government tracks their online and electronic info and its good that they are getting informed about it atleast!



It is good that people are talking about it but trying to assign blame to the current administration is political theater.  It is crazy that this is going at and has been going on for so long isn't it?  And the fact that most Americans are so complacent about it....gah...it is maddening!!!   And the laws DO  need to be updated to the current times!!  ::):

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## Tinkerbell

Winekitty, if you mean that people outside of this board are trying to blame current administration, I agree that it is just political posturing and I believe that it would happen to whomever was in office.  I think that those of us who have posted on this subject are using the word government generically, at least that is the impression I get.  This issue has grown over many years through many administrations Republican and Democratic.

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## WintersTale

You are entitled to life and liberty, except when the government doesn't want you to have it. Nice!

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## Otherside

I suppose I can get why google/microsoft etc did that.

Let's put it this way. Let's say Ms.Ventura or Mr.Joker were handed a court warrant, on the very very unlikely occurance that the USA-FBI bigwot spy people needed information on...something. I'm guessing I'm on US server here because I'm not getting the six million pop-ups warning me about this and that I get on EU servers, especially the one that says that the website uses cookies and do I wish to continue (YES, for the nine hundreth time!!!), so I'm guessing if the police demanded info for whatever, they wouldn't have that much of a choice but to give. I get that. Pretty much every government in the world can do that.

I guess half the problem over here is that a lot of Europeans are used to data protection. EU law makes it so that we can demand companies to remove all information on us at any time without consequence, and start up a lawsuit if they refuse to. I think the main problem over here is do the US have access to stuff that comes into US servers that's from Europe? Or access to stuff from other companies that's on servers in Europe. To the second one, no, definatley not. Seems as though the US only had access to stuff that was on US servers, or that companies in the US had access to. Does it surprise Facebook was involved? Nope. Facebook has already manage to pis off Europe several times due to privacy breaches. And the server is in Ireland.

Well, europes epically pissed off at the momment. Especially Germany. Can you blame them? It wasn't so long ago that the Stasi were the ones spying on them, and a lot of people remember that, or were victims of Stasi spying. Not so great for Obama that it happened so close to the G8.

*Edit*-Yup, I'm on a US server. There's now a flag telling me that.

Seriously, I don't think anyomes gonna understand that post at all.

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## Koalafan

> I suppose I can get why google/microsoft etc did that.
> 
> Let's put it this way. Let's say Ms.Ventura or Mr.Joker were handed a court warrant, on the very very unlikely occurance that the USA-FBI bigwot spy people needed information on...something. I'm guessing I'm on US server here because I'm not getting the six million pop-ups warning me about this and that I get on EU servers, especially the one that says that the website uses cookies and do I wish to continue (YES, for the nine hundreth time!!!), so I'm guessing if the police demanded info for whatever, they wouldn't have that much of a choice but to give. I get that. Pretty much every government in the world can do that.
> 
> I guess half the problem over here is that a lot of Europeans are used to data protection. EU law makes it so that we can demand companies to remove all information on us at any time without consequence, and start up a lawsuit if they refuse to. I think the main problem over here is do the US have access to stuff that comes into US servers that's from Europe? Or access to stuff from other companies that's on servers in Europe. To the second one, no, definatley not. Seems as though the US only had access to stuff that was on US servers, or that companies in the US had access to. Does it surprise Facebook was involved? Nope. Facebook has already manage to pis off Europe several times due to privacy breaches. And the server is in Ireland.
> 
> Well, europes epically pissed off at the momment. Especially Germany. Can you blame them? It wasn't so long ago that the Stasi were the ones spying on them, and a lot of people remember that, or were victims of Stasi spying. Not so great for Obama that it happened so close to the G8.
> 
> *Edit*-Yup, I'm on a US server. There's now a flag telling me that.
> ...



Hey otherside this article is for you since you live in the UK!  :Tongue:  Warning, it aint pretty lol

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/ju...unications-nsa

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## WineKitty

> Winekitty, if you mean that people outside of this board are trying to blame current administration, I agree that it is just political posturing and I believe that it would happen to whomever was in office.  I think that those of us who have posted on this subject are using the word government generically, at least that is the impression I get.  This issue has grown over many years through many administrations Republican and Democratic.



Yeah I was referring more to the media's handling of this rather than the people on this board, more of a generalized thing.

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## WintersTale

I am all for catching terrorism and illegal activities. 

But there is a huge gap in what constitutes illegal activities. America already has a war on the mentally ill. Do we have to worry about google or some other company collecting our personal information, selling it to the government, who will put us in a database for the mentally ill? To be honest, that frightens the hell out of me, because I am more than my mental illness. I am a person, who happens to suffer from anxiety, depression, and low self esteem. That doesn't make me a terrible person, and I shouldn't be categorized in some random database, like I'm a robot or some non-human creature.

I don't entirely trust our government. I trust Obama, who I think has his heart in the right place, but I don't trust our Congress. I don't trust the people that surround the president, who usually have more power than he does, and I certainly don't trust google, despite being a fan of the company. My privacy should be respected. I deserve the same basic rights as everyone else, and having my rights infringed on, just because of a few nutters, is unconstitutional.

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## Otherside

^I'm all for catching terrorism but I'm not for a country which I owe nothing to and doesn't really affect me that much on a day to day basis deciding it's going to snoop into my affairs. I wouldn't mind so much if it was my own country. What bugs me is that it isn't, and I don't know what the Americans think we foreigners think about America, but the majority of us don't really care that much about America the majority of the time, and just want to get on with our lives without any interference from them. And as a european citizen, I have a right to privacy and data cannot be collected on me without my consent, which I did not give.

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## compulsive

I don't trust US politicians. But I trust that they are not stupid and are out for themselves. They can't do [BEEP] without the media having a field day. Oh and a company like google? They use your info to learn how to better advertise and get you to buy stuff. They are trying to make money, not lawsuits. The US politicians can't touch Google, nor would it.

FB on the other hand...:/

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## Otherside

> I don't trust US politicians. But I trust that they are not stupid and are out for themselves. They can't do [BEEP] without the media having a field day. Oh and a company like google? They use your info to learn how to better advertise and get you to buy stuff. They are trying to make money, not lawsuits. The US politicians can't touch Google, nor would it.



They can. They don't want a lawsuit, and if the US hands over a legal document to google demanding information in the name of justice, they don't have a choice but to give them to information. That's the case in most countries, with most companies. If a legal document was given to anxiety space demanding whatever information they have on Otherside, anxiety space would have to give it to them. That's the law. The US can't order a company outside the US to hand over information in that way. The problem is though, that the majority of information the US companies has stored on me was stored in servers in europe, and since the majority of companies choose which country to base there server on based on how low the tax rate is, really, they should be obeying EU law, which says this is illegal. 

And the EU can and will force companies like Facebook to adhere to it. You may notice on the US facebook there's something on a photo which can recognise a persons face. We don't have that in Europe, because there was a lawsuit that it went against privacy protection laws. Facebook was forced to disable it throughout Europe. If we hit delete on our Facebook account, Facebook has no choice but to wipe every single piece of data it has on me in a way that means it can't be recovered (I don't know if that's the case in the US or elsewhere)

Edit-My bad, google.co.uk is on a US server. Which means I guess they can store whatever information they want about me and hand it to the feds.

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## compulsive

> They can. They don't want a lawsuit, and if the US hands over a legal document to google demanding information in the name of justice, they don't have a choice but to give them to information. That's the case in most countries, with most companies. If a legal document was given to anxiety space demanding whatever information they have on Otherside, anxiety space would have to give it to them. That's the law. The US can't order a company outside the US to hand over information in that way. The problem is though, that the majority of information the US companies has stored on me was stored in servers in europe, and since the majority of companies choose which country to base there server on based on how low the tax rate is, really, they should be obeying EU law, which says this is illegal. 
> 
> And the EU can and will force companies like Facebook to adhere to it. You may notice on the US facebook there's something on a photo which can recognise a persons face. We don't have that in Europe, because there was a lawsuit that it went against privacy protection laws. Facebook was forced to disable it throughout Europe. If we hit delete on our Facebook account, Facebook has no choice but to wipe every single piece of data it has on me in a way that means it can't be recovered (I don't know if that's the case in the US or elsewhere)
> 
> Edit-My bad, google.co.uk is on a US server. Which means I guess they can store whatever information they want about me and hand it to the feds.




Still what can they do unless you broke the law? Do you think they would get away with inappropriate use of the data collected?

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## WintersTale

Actually, google stands up for privacy, most of the time. 

The RIAA and MPAA have tried to get them to hand over bootleggers and ban searches, but google has stood firm that people have the right to open information. I actually like them as a company more for that. They are less likely to release your information.

If you go with the big companies, like Apple or Microsoft, as much as I like them, prepare to have your privacy infringed upon. 

And, of course, it's best to hide behind a proxy, because, even if you aren't doing anything potentially wrong, it's best to do that, for your own privacy.

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## Koalafan

Latest NSA bombshell leak...a program called XKeyscore. Watch this video and prepare to spit whatever you're drinking straight onto your computer  :Tongue: .

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## WintersTale

I don't need to watch the video. I've already read several articles about it.

I think it's disgusting. The government should not have this kind of power.

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