# Struggles and Support > Medication >  >  Meds cause brain damage

## Misssy

There are some articles out there on the internet that say anti-depressants might cause (SSRI) permanent brain damage. 

Wonder how evasive my doctor can be about that if I ask them....hey what has happened to my brain now?

http://www.examiner.com/article/anti...t-brain-damage

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-pet...b_1077185.html

----------


## Otherside

I wouldn't pay too much attention to thees articles and people that claim this. There's always a large faction of people who claim things like this. Yes, there is a small chance that there will  be some not so nice side effects with antidepressants. But that's true of every drug you try. Ever time you take a painkiller such as Tylenol, there's a chance there will be some not so pleasant side effects. 

But that's just me, I guess. I'm more worried about what could happen if I don't take my meds.

----------


## Antidote

I'm kind of confused because the article wrote that ssri antidepressants cause an increase in neurons (neurogenesis) and connections (dendrite arborization). I don't know how this would lead to cognitive decline because I'd have thought it'd boost it. But maybe these new connections and growth is a bad thing in excess.

----------


## pam

"...the brain attempts to compensate for the impact of the SSRIs by reducing the brain's capacity to respond to serotonin." 

This is what my nonscientific opinion has always been! based on my personal experience with taking Paxil for 3 yrs. When I'd complain it wasn't working ("SSRI-induced apathy") --"up the dose, up the dose, up the dose!" was the answer. All that did was up my weight!

Also when I wanted to go off, it was hell when I tired to stop cold turkey. Then I was told to taper off over a couple weeks. Well, I didn't listen to that either--I actually took 5 months to taper down to where I was eventually only taking a piece of Paxil so small it was too small for a pill cutter. If you do it over a very long time, then you don't have withdrawal.

I like that Peter Breggin--I've heard of him before.

----------


## kc1895

> There are some articles out there on the internet that say anti-depressants might cause (SSRI) permanent brain damage. 
> 
> Wonder how evasive my doctor can be about that if I ask them....hey what has happened to my brain now?
> 
> http://www.examiner.com/article/anti...t-brain-damage
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-pet...b_1077185.html



That explains everything.   ::   I'm going to be 10 years soon, and reaching my permanent brain damage decline.   Thanks for sharing those articles, Missy.  :Hug:

----------


## Equinox

Most of the research I've seen goes in the opposite direction with SSRIs having a neuroprotective effect on brain cells. 





> Do Antidepressants Protect The Brain and Neurons From Damage Caused by Depression and Stress
> 
> I have mentioned in many of my articles that *the newer antidepressants have been shown in studies to protect the brain from damage and loss of neurons. They have a positive effect of reducing the loss of volume in the area of the brain known as the hippocampus. In short the SSRIs have been shown to cause the stem cells in the hippocampus to mature into adult brain cells and replace the damaged cells*.



http://psychiatristscottsdale.com/do...ect-the-brain/





> Clinical and basic researches demonstrate that *chronic antidepressant treatment increases the rate of neurogenesis in the adult hippocampus. Antidepressants up-regulate cAMP and the neurotrophin signaling pathways involved in plasticity and survival*. In vitro and in vivo data provide direct evidence that the transcription factor, cAMP response element-binding protein (CREB) and the neurotrophin, BDNF are key mediators of the therapeutic response to antidepressants. Depression maybe associated with a disruption of mechanisms that govern cell survival and neuroplasticity in the brain.







> New research in animals is beginning to change radically our understanding of the biology of stress and the effects of antidepressant agents. Recent findings from the basic neurosciences to the pathophysiology of depressive disorder suggest that stress and antidepressants have reciprocal actions on neuronal growth and vulnerability (mediated by the expression of neurotrophin) and synaptic plasticity (mediated by excitatory amino acid neurotransmission) in the hippocampus and other brain structures. *Stressors have the capacity to progressively disrupt both the activities of individual cells and the operating characteristics of networks of neurons, while antidepressant treatments act to reverse such injurious effects*[10]. *Antidepressant drugs increase the expression of several molecules, which are associated with neuroplasticity; in particular the neurotrophin BDNF and its receptor TrkB. Antidepressants also increase neurogenesis and synaptic numbers in several brain areas.* SSRI antidepressant fluoxetine can reactivate developmental-like neuroplasticity in the adult visual cortex, which, under appropriate environmental guidance, leads to the rewiring of a developmentally dysfunctional neural network[11, 12].



http://www.ukessays.com/essays/psych...logy-essay.php

http://mentalhealth.about.com/cs/psy...urogenesis.htm

----------


## Equinox

> http://www.examiner.com/article/anti...t-brain-damage



The integrity of this article is particularly disconcerting to me, because of the possibly faulty scientific method behind it, the author is stated as being "James Williams, a health and life coach and head of FreeSpirit Coaching. He has degrees in psychology and coaching psychology, and certifications in fitness, nutrition, coaching, kinesiology, and craniosacral therapy. James helps people to get results using the very best tools in NLP, life coaching". Hence, he's not in the position to make such judgements with total merit. He also provides only one single reference which seems to be a link to a fringe site.

----------


## metamorphosis

It is true that certain classes of medications can have serious consequences to brain functioning. Even when they are used at the proper dose. The obvious being the AP's and AAP's, which at the worst can cause Tardive Dyskinesia. That being said, my friend, who has schizoaffective disorder would not be alive now and functioning without Haldol and Clozaril. He has been on these drugs for yrs. and luckily has had few benign side effects.
Also, there are many studies linking long term benzodiazepine use to cognitive impairment and memory loss. I bring these up because the OP. has a good point but you have to weigh the pro and con benefits. The positives to the possible negatives with any medication/drug you take. Like the example earlier with my friend, they saved his life and that was more important than the risk  of developing T.D. or dystonia or tachycardia.

I brought up two classes of drugs that can have pretty severe side effects. There are many others that are relatively safe to take.

----------


## metamorphosis

> "...the brain attempts to compensate for the impact of the SSRIs by reducing the brain's capacity to respond to serotonin." 
> 
> This is what my nonscientific opinion has always been! based on my personal experience with taking Paxil for 3 yrs. When I'd complain it wasn't working ("SSRI-induced apathy") --"up the dose, up the dose, up the dose!" was the answer. All that did was up my weight!
> 
> Also when I wanted to go off, it was hell when I tired to stop cold turkey. Then I was told to taper off over a couple weeks. Well, I didn't listen to that either--I actually took 5 months to taper down to where I was eventually only taking a piece of Paxil so small it was too small for a pill cutter. If you do it over a very long time, then you don't have withdrawal.
> 
> I like that Peter Breggin--I've heard of him before.



BTW long term SSRI use can cause frontal lobe apathy. Symptoms include anhedonia and dysphoria, but I do not know the exact %. I would have to pubmed it and lately I have not been in the research mood. 
Also, Peter Breggin is a narrow minded quack. He is an extremist. Who finds no balance in the use of psych. meds. There is a middle ground. If someone is suicidal or extremely depressed. They need a medication quickly to stop a tragedy or long term misery  Maybe in a yr. or two once stabilized,  they can come off. If someone is agoraphobic or has severe SA an anxiolytic will help get that person out of the house to use other therapies (exposure, cbt, act, psychotherapy).I am all for using everything we have available, including the combination of natural medicines and psychopharmacology. It's a pretty logical conclusion.

----------


## Otherside

> It is true that certain classes of medications can have serious consequences to brain functioning. Even when they are used at the proper dose. The obvious being the AP's and AAP's, which at the worst can cause Tardive Dyskinesia. That being said, my friend, who has schizoaffective disorder would not be alive now and functioning without Haldol and Clozaril. He has been on these drugs for yrs. and luckily has had few benign side effects.
> Also, there are many studies linking long term benzodiazepine use to cognitive impairment and memory loss. I bring these up because the OP. has a good point but you have to weigh the pro and con benefits. The positives to the possible negatives with any medication/drug you take. Like the example earlier with my friend, they saved his life and that was more important than the risk  of developing T.D. or dystonia or tachycardia.
> 
> I brought up two classes of drugs that can have pretty severe side effects. There are many others that are relatively safe to take.



Metamorphosis, I know of meds that have pretty serious side effects, and thankfully, I have never had to take any that would really worry me. To be honest, I think it is a personal choice, and I don't like it when people preach to me to not take drugs. I don't have schizoaffective, but I know of people that simply cannot function without a cocktail of twelve or so not so nice meds a day, hate them, hate the side effects, but know that it's better than being manic, psychotic and possibly hospitalized. I know that anti-depressants have there own risks and side effects, but I've never had anything that's led to me being hospitalized with them, or even many of the commons ones people say about.

And I thought Benzo's were only supposed to be used short term? I know people do use them long term, and I've got nothing agaisnt people who do. I've refused to take them, I'm too scared of becomming dependent and the withdrawl to take them. It's the same personal choice, I guess.

----------


## pam

> It is true that certain classes of medications can have serious consequences to brain functioning. Even when they are used at the proper dose. The obvious being the AP's and AAP's, which at the worst can cause Tardive Dyskinesia. That being said, my friend, who has schizoaffective disorder would not be alive now and functioning without Haldol and Clozaril. He has been on these drugs for yrs. and luckily has had few benign side effects.
> Also, there are many studies linking long term benzodiazepine use to cognitive impairment and memory loss. I bring these up because the OP. has a good point but you have to weigh the pro and con benefits. The positives to the possible negatives with any medication/drug you take. Like the example earlier with my friend, they saved his life and that was more important than the risk  of developing T.D. or dystonia or tachycardia.
> 
> I brought up two classes of drugs that can have pretty severe side effects. There are many others that are relatively safe to take.



I think if a drug works, then a person should have every right to decide to take it, especially in cases like you mention. He's actually benefiting from it. But how many people do we know who take SSRIs and they aren't even helping? Those are the people who should have this info and think twice about what they could possibly be doing to themselves. I'm no scientist, but I always felt like my brain resisted whatever drug I put into it. Or like in homeostasis--it just tries to go back to how it was before (even if that meant I wasn't happy). 

I also never understood why a person is pushed into taking different SSRIs--they all affect the serotonin level, so same difference, right? The part that worries me the most in one of the articles was that one's brain can change permanently so that it won't respond to serotonin (even naturally-occuring). So just quitting the drug won't fix it.

But I also wonder--what about 10 years after you quit? Will one's brain finally adjust back and let itself be affected by natural serotonin? Or will the damage be permanent? Ugh, but that's 20 yrs of a brain not working right.

----------


## metamorphosis

> Metamorphosis, I know of meds that have pretty serious side effects, and thankfully, I have never had to take any that would really worry me. To be honest, I think it is a personal choice, and I don't like it when people preach to me to not take drugs. I don't have schizoaffective, but I know of people that simply cannot function without a cocktail of twelve or so not so nice meds a day, hate them, hate the side effects, but know that it's better than being manic, psychotic and possibly hospitalized. I know that anti-depressants have there own risks and side effects, but I've never had anything that's led to me being hospitalized with them, or even many of the commons ones people say about.
> 
> And I thought Benzo's were only supposed to be used short term? I know people do use them long term, and I've got nothing agaisnt people who do. I've refused to take them, I'm too scared of becomming dependent and the withdrawl to take them. It's the same personal choice, I guess.



If you are implying that I was preaching. Than my post must have come across in a negative way to you. I don't think that it sounded like an anti-drug post. I believe in balance. And if you knew me, I post on the med. sites here and at "the other site" quite frequently. I am just stating facts. I take medication myself for SA, GAD, and Bipolar but thats not the be all and end all. As far as benzos are concerned. Yeah, they should only be used short term unless you have agoraphobia and can't even leave the house or debilitating SA or GAD. Disorders that are not only compromising your quality of life but ruining it.
There are also many pdocs who are irresponsible when prescribing benzos.
I also mentioned a friend who has to take heavy duty antipsychotics. We are lucky that pdocs have them in their armamentarium because he is still alive and stabilized. If he didn't have access to the heavy hitters like haldol or clozaril. Then I'm positive he wouldn't be alive and content, as we speak.
Taking any medication is a personal choice. Some people don't even take their blood pressure meds.!

----------


## metamorphosis

> I think if a drug works, then a person should have every right to decide to take it, especially in cases like you mention. He's actually benefiting from it. But how many people do we know who take SSRIs and they aren't even helping? Those are the people who should have this info and think twice about what they could possibly be doing to themselves. I'm no scientist, but I always felt like my brain resisted whatever drug I put into it. Or like in homeostasis--it just tries to go back to how it was before (even if that meant I wasn't happy). 
> 
> I also never understood why a person is pushed into taking different SSRIs--they all affect the serotonin level, so same difference, right? The part that worries me the most in one of the articles was that one's brain can change permanently so that it won't respond to serotonin (even naturally-occuring). So just quitting the drug won't fix it.
> 
> But I also wonder--what about 10 years after you quit? Will one's brain finally adjust back and let itself be affected by natural serotonin? Or will the damage be permanent? Ugh, but that's 20 yrs of a brain not working right.



http://anxietyspace.com/forums/showt...l=1#post276321

----------


## Otherside

> If you are implying that I was preaching. Than my post must have come across in a negative way to you. I don't think that it sounded like an anti-drug post. I believe in balance. And if you knew me, I post on the med. sites here and at "the other site" quite frequently. I am just stating facts. I take medication myself for SA, GAD, and Bipolar but thats not the be all and end all. As far as benzos are concerned. Yeah, they should only be used short term unless you have agoraphobia and can't even leave the house or debilitating SA or GAD. Disorders that are not only compromising your quality of life but ruining it.
> There are also many pdocs who are irresponsible when prescribing benzos.
> I also mentioned a friend who has to take heavy duty antipsychotics. We are lucky that pdocs have them in their armamentarium because he is still alive and stabilized. If he didn't have access to the heavy hitters like haldol or clozaril. Then I'm positive he wouldn't be alive and content, as we speak.
> Taking any medication is a personal choice. Some people don't even take their blood pressure meds.!



Sorry, I didn't mean to come across applying you were preaching! I don't think you are, and you've helped me before in the past with my own meds and you know a lot about them. So I'm sorry if that's the way I came across.

I have to agree though, to many irresponsible docs who prescribe benzos, too many people who overestimated them.

----------


## metamorphosis

> Sorry, I didn't mean to come across applying you were preaching! I don't think you are, and you've helped me before in the past with my own meds and you know a lot about them. So I'm sorry if that's the way I came across.
> 
> I have to agree though, to many irresponsible docs who prescribe benzos, too many people who overestimated them.



Good, I just didn't want it to sound like I was up on a rickety old soap box preaching or something  ::):  I am just trying to give a balanced view, in my humble opinion. I am actually on some meds that have side effects. But it's the trade off, I have to take to keep myself sane and functioning!

----------


## Otherside

> Good, I just didn't want it to sound like I was up on a rickety old soap box preaching or something  I am just trying to give a balanced view, in my humble opinion. I am actually on some meds that have side effects. But it's the trade off, I have to take to keep myself sane and functioning!



Yeah, same here. Sucks, gotta hate these meds, but still...Sorry, guess I didn't come across well. I know you're not a preaching soap box, and I've seen you on here and on the place we shall not name. I know some meds are dangerous, but still, there's a lot of threads on the why-my-life-sucks-and-I-have-worse-SA-than-you-because-you-can-have-sex-and-youre-all-whores site that are just making me face palm a bit tonight. 

Really is a shock when you look at that place immeadiatley after being here. =/

----------


## metamorphosis

^
That's one reason why I hang in the meds section over there!  :;):  Besides the fact that I find psychopharmacology fascinating and also healing through nutrition, exercise, and other naturopathic ways!

----------


## Otherside

> ^
> That's one reason why I hang in the meds section over there!  Besides the fact that I find psychopharmacology fascinating and also healing through nutrition, exercise, and other naturopathic ways!



Yer, I'm beginning to become interested in it too. Funny how I suddenly became interested in all of this when I started bercomming mentally ill...sigh...

----------


## metamorphosis

> Yer, I'm beginning to become interested in it too. Funny how I suddenly became interested in all of this when I started bercomming mentally ill...sigh...



Coincidence, I think not.
 That's why I became interested. If I was going to take these medications;Then I wanted to learn about them and of course that opens a pandora's box into how our brains (neurons, cells, neurotransmitters etc)work 
Look at these facts:
From wiki-




> One estimate puts the human brain at about 100 billion (1011) neurons and 100 trillion (1014) synapses.[26] A lower 2012 estimate is 86 billion neurons, of which 16.3 billion are in the cerebral cortex, and 69 billion in the cerebellum.






There are also numerous neurotransmitters in the brain. That work in a very complex way. Sending signals to all of those neurons.
Scientists have managed to identify over 100 neurotransmitters in the human brain alone, but evidence suggests we have significantly more than this number. An unfortunate aspect of not being able to identify all neurotransmitter cells is that researchers, especially those developing medications to act on specific messenger cells, canât always determine why or how medications work or fail to work.
A few important ones, dealing with psychiatric conditions include, from wiki:

Quote:
The effects of a neurotransmitter system depend on the connections of the neurons that use the transmitter, and the chemical properties of the receptors that the transmitter binds to.
Here are a few examples of important neurotransmitter actions:
- Glutamate is used at the great majority of fast excitatory synapses in the brain and spinal cord. It is also used at most synapses that are "modifiable", i.e. capable of increasing or decreasing in strength. Excess glutamate can overstimulate the brain and causes seizures.[citation needed] Modifiable synapses are thought to be the main memory-storage elements in the brain. Excessive glutamate release can lead to excitotoxicity causing cell death.
-GABA is used at the great majority of fast inhibitory synapses in virtually every part of the brain. Many sedative/tranquilizing drugs act by enhancing the effects of GABA. Correspondingly glycine is the inhibitory transmitter in the spinal cord.
- Acetylcholine is distinguished as the transmitter at the neuromuscular junction connecting motor nerves to muscles. The paralytic arrow-poison curare acts by blocking transmission at these synapses. Acetylcholine also operates in many regions of the brain, but using different types of receptors, including nicotinic and muscarinic receptors.[9]
- Dopamine has a number of important functions in the brain; this includes regulation of motor behavior, pleasures related to motivation and also emotional arousal. It plays a critical role in the reward system; people with Parkinson's disease have been linked to low levels of dopamine and people with schizophrenia have been linked to high levels of dopamine.[10]
- Serotonin is a monoamine neurotransmitter. Most is produced by and found in the intestine (approximately 90, and the remainder in central nervous system neurons. It functions to regulate appetite, sleep, memory and learning, temperature, mood, behaviour, muscle contraction, and function of the cardiovascular system and endocrine system. It is speculated to have a role in depression, as some depressed patients are seen to have lower concentrations of metabolites of serotonin in their cerebrospinal fluid and brain tissue.[11]
- Substance P is an undecapeptide responsible for transmission of pain from certain sensory neurons to the central nervous system. It also aids in controlling relaxation of the vasculature and lowering blood pressure through the release of nitric oxide.[12]
- Opioid peptides are neurotransmitters that act within pain pathways and the emotional centers of the brain; some of them are analgesics and elicit pleasure or euphoria.[13]
*Neurons expressing certain types of neurotransmitters sometimes form distinct systems, where activation of the system affects large volumes of the brain, called volume transmission. Major neurotransmitter systems include the noradrenaline (norepinephrine) system, the dopamine system, the serotonin system and the cholinergic system.
Drugs targeting the neurotransmitter of such systems affect the whole system; this fact explains the complexity of action of some drugs.*



So yeah, it's pretty crazy up there and sometimes the little monkeys in our brains start to work overtime!!!

----------


## Misssy

Friend of mine is a chef she catered a retreat for one of those big drug companies like Merk. She said those people are just the worst slime-balls you ever met. There was a funny movie that alludes to this....gosh I need to find it.

It's 100% money driven. ....not driven out of the desire to heal people. 

There is a difference between the companies asking "how can we heal these people" versus "how can we make money off of this problem"

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...82M0MK20120323

----------


## Equinox

> BTW long term SSRI use can cause frontal lobe apathy. Symptoms include anhedonia and dysphoria, but I do not know the exact %. I would have to pubmed it and lately I have not been in the research mood.



Regarding SSRIs and frontal lobe apathy, it's due to serotonin inhibiting norepinephrine and dopamine release in the frontal cortex AFAIK. It's not a permanent effect ie: it will return to normal when the patient stops the SSRI, however it is one of those side effects which unfortunately sometimes needs an add-on to remedy it. It's less common with Fluoxetine and SNRIs because they have mechanisms which revere this effect to a partial extent. I covered it in a bit more depth here:http://anxietyspace.com/forums/showt...ts-Perspective

----------


## pam

> Also, Peter Breggin is a narrow minded quack.



Is name-calling really necessary?

----------


## Misssy

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...talin/1983369/

A different kind of article about brain-drugs. 

It's interesting to me, the pressure to do good in school for kids, the pressure to appear happy all the time and perform for adults.

----------


## Otherside

> http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...talin/1983369/
> 
> A different kind of article about brain-drugs. 
> 
> It's interesting to me, the pressure to do good in school for kids, the pressure to appear happy all the time and perform for adults.



Seems to be a lot of pressure from some parents for kids to well. It's interesting how many parents you come across that expect nothing less than Straight A's at school, and if that doesn't happy, they blame it on the fact that the child is not working hard enough. 

Ritalin in particular is a drug that has a reputation. There seems to be a debate on it. This guy here is saying that it's okay to use it if you don't have ADHD or aren't prescribed it. 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/8106957.stm

And then there's this which brings on the connection between Ritalin and another drug, Cocaine.

Or this place here that also agrees that Ritalin is being abused. 

http://hyperfast.homestead.com/speed.html

Seems it not just to do well in school that Ritalin can be abused with. It's also being used as a recreational drug, similar to some of those that are illegal, and one thats probably more easily available that say, Cocaine, and presumed safe because it's a prescription drug.

Now I'm not saying it is dangerous. But the difference is, someone taking it to treat ADHD is doing it under the supervision of a doctor, who will be able to tell them what dose to take, how to take it, will be able to monitor side effects and take them off ritalin if that's what it comes to. Taking it without medical supervision...well, it's only available on prescription for a reason. It could be dangerous taking whatever dose without any idea whatsoever what that drug does and how it works and what not to do when taking it.

*Edit*-Just gonna add this that I found here. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7684963.stm





> "[These drugs] put a rush of adrenalin into the blood. Your pulse rate and blood pressure increase and your pupils dilate," she says."There can be potentially very dangerous physical side effects if you have an underlying cardiac disorder. The effects could lead to a heart attack or similar."
> When the drugs are prescribed, a doctor usually carries out checks on a patient's blood pressure and susceptibility to side effects and a careful risk verses benefit calculation is made, says Dr Maycock. But for the students, none of these checks are performed and the taker may not know that they are at risk.







> "If you had a hidden aneurysm in your brain, it could blow it apart. People never think that they are the ones at risk."
> In the short term, Ritalin users can suffer from an array of side effects - anxiety, insomnia, loss of appetite, irritability and headaches and all common. The long-term effects of the drug are largely unknown.



Although I would like to say on the last article I posted, this is an error. Modafinal is not an amphetamine, but an acetimide. So yeah. Is a mistake on there.

----------

