# Outside the Box > Philosophy and Debate >  >  Death penalty

## Coffee

For or against? Why? 

I haven't put a 'it depends' option because I believe it's literally either 'for' or 'against'. If you think it should be reserved for only the most heinous, disgusting crimes where the accused is DEFINITELY beyond a reasonable doubt guilty, you're still for it.

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## Member11

_Against._ I can understand why people would be for it, when I read reports and court documents of murder and rape cases for research, I want nothing more than for the perpetrators to get whats coming to them. But, I firmly believe that none of us should lower ourselves to their level to just make ourselves feel better, if we put someone to death and get pleasure from it, how are we any different to them.

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## Coffee

Same. For several reasons. 

1) There are too many variables and mistakes that can be made. There are heaps of people that have been sentenced to death only to find out that person was innocent after they're already dead. 
2) It's actually cheaper to imprison someone for life than to give them the death penalty.
3) It's just cruel. Every human being has the right to life. If someone takes that right away from someone, how is it any better that we're taking away their life? 
4) Imprisonment for life is far worse than being killed. If I committed a horrific crime, I'd much rather be given the death penalty than have to spend the rest of my life in jail. 

So there are several ways of looking at it depending on which perspective you come from.

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## T-Bone

I'm for it for certain individuals. Serial killers caught in the act (caught with the evidence/corpses in their possession) for example. Or those who kill, serve out their sentence, then kill again. No trial or imprisonment needed...just kill em. I don't care about the method, leave that up to the individuals affected. Although there should be a wider variety of methods offered. I guess if they feel life in prison is worse, that's fine too. Vengeance belongs to the people, not to the "Lord".

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## Antidote

Against. Though I do sympathise with the need for retribution, I'm mainly against it because it's so expensive.

I used to think it was hypocritical for society to forbid murder, yet sanction it in the criminal justice system. But I've kind of shifted my views on that in the last couple of years, due to philosophical beliefs about life, death and cruelty. There's also an argument that the living conditions in jails are higher than what many inmates deserve, and I think that argument is probably valid. For instance, for inmates involved in serious crimes and have proven themselves resistant to rehabilitation, and / or have life without parole, I think they should be denied access to education / getting degrees. Again, mainly for practical reasons - it's expensive and society shouldn't have to fund these peoples' education... only expenses for the bare minimum (to keep them alive).

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## WintersTale

I'm usually against, but in the case of serial killers, rapists, and child molesters, I am definitely for it. 

Anybody who kills someone can't be rehabilitated, and anybody who rapes or molests someone definitely can't be rehabilitated. It's best to not send them to jail, but straight to hell.

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## takethebiscuit

I'm against it.

But my fully honest answer is: sometimes I really don't know.

In the case of rapists, killers, child abusers etc...well, you'd have to stop me shooting them myself if it were not for the fact that I promised my God that there would be no violence in her name. And my life is in her name. 

In many cases, I believe there has to be a chance given for regret, remorse and rehabilitation to take place. In most cases, the asking of a life in payment for a crime is barbaric nonsense and, whilst we might not often like it, we have to be the ones who are better than the person who did the crime. We have to allow justice to take place, yes. But we also have to allow for the chance that maybe, just maybe, something good and better could come from it all. 

Sometimes there really is no hope and there is no empathy inside the person. Sometimes the person rots to the core and you're not going to see that person make any changes in their life. 

But in other times, it's not nearly as clear cut as that.

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## Otherside

Against. I'm more for them spending a life in prison rather than just killing them off. But then for the worst criminals, the serious criminals, the rapists, the child molesters...I don't know. Sometimes I wonder. When I hear the stories on the news then sometimes I do wonder whether or not they do deserve to die or not.

But what if we get it wrong? Then were killing an innocent man.

Im more for his country doing something about the prison system and stop trying to make it as comfy as possible for the people that can't be bothered to obey the law. XBoxs in cells? You are joking me. And now Europe wants to give them vote. Thankfully, that one hasn't been passed. 

So yeah...a lifetime in prison, rights taken away from them.

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## pam

> Totally against. 
> 
> For manly this reason: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrongful_execution



Yes this!!!!

Unless we live in the perfect world where money doesn't influence trial outcomes, jurors are actually not dumb sheep who will believe anything a charismatic lawyer tells them, deals aren't made with sometimes criminals just to get someone else convicted, judges are not biased at all, and prosecutors don't need to convict people so they can be re-elected, etc. then I am definitely AGAINST it. 

Do people actually think that becuase someone is convicted of a crime, they are guilty? I know that's what I was taught as a child, but that's not reality. "Justice" isn't "equal" at all and it sure isn't blind. And prisons (which are not the same as jails even tho people use them interchangably) are there to keep offenders/criminals apart from society for the *safety* of society, not as a "punishment" or to get revenge.

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## Coffee

> I'm usually against, but in the case of serial killers, rapists, and child molesters, I am definitely for it. 
> 
> Anybody who kills someone can't be rehabilitated, and anybody who rapes or molests someone definitely can't be rehabilitated. It's best to not send them to jail, but straight to hell.



I'd like to kill rapists and child molesters too, but logically it makes more sense for them to spend the rest of their lives in jail. To be honest, on a kind of mean note, they usually don't last long in prison if they've hurt a child and might need to be sent to solitary for their own protection. That's gotta suck. I know the punishment doesn't really fit the crime here. They CAN be rehabilitated but they will still be a danger to society which is why they have little areas and halfway houses where they have to live. Some people think it's unfair,but I think if you've hurt someone else in that way, take the consequences like a responsible adult. 

I also agree with people saying jail conditions should not be so luxurious. The prisons in Norway look better than dorm rooms. I'm not saying take every right away from prisoners, because for people who are in for drug charges, having a horrid environment is likely to make them want to reoffend (plus you can't really treat drug offenders in the same way you do a murderer, so lesser offenses should be treated as such). But for murderers/sex offenders, they shouldn't be allowed access to the comforts of life. Having said that, Norway's recidivism rate is lower than the US. But still, their conditions are too nice and for 'vulnerable' individuals (like the poor), going to jail is genuinely better than living on the streets.

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## T-Bone

Someone would have to be one hardcore serial rapist/molester for me to but them in the same category with murderers like you all do. But then again, i've never been molested or raped either. Even if i had, i can't really see wishing death upon the person before incarceration and rehabilitation.

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## Chopin12

i have no opinion really, but i was watching tv one time about  a prison in israel and it looked awesome. they could have playstations, shoes, clothes, fans.. carpets.. drapes.. all kinds of cool shit. beds. they were allowed to stay in rooms with their family and junk. they talked about how it was easier to keep them happy than have them causing trouble and getting violent.

this one dude killed his sister for dating a guy on the internet and 'shaming' their family name JEEZ

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## WintersTale

Wow, that's pretty crazy, Chopin.

I agree with Ventura that there are a lot of people who are innocent who are sent to prison. And even those who just make mistakes, and then turn their lives around...and then have to live their entire lives based on a single mistake. 

I just feel that there are so many flaws with the legal system.

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## whiteman

I just think a society should strive to be better than the worst of its members, or a society should strive to be better than the worst acts committed within it.

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## WintersTale

Never will happen. There are too many bad people in the world, especially those in positions of power.

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## Arthur Dent

Oh crap, I voted _for_ because I confused this tab with the weed legalization one. I concur with the wrongful execution argument. Although in the case of people who have committed horrendous crimes, I don't like the idea of having them living at the expense of tax payers for several years. I think they should be put to work without pay for the rest of their miserable lives as a form to retribution to the society they harmed, it sounds like slavery, and well, it would be that, I do think they deserve it. A good job would be to put them to dismantle landmines.

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## Tinkerbell

That is really a tough philosophical question, would you really know unless something happened to you or yours personally?  My friend had her 85 yr old mother murdered and robbed for $400.  They hit her in the head with a tire iron, shoved her in the trunk of her own car and set it on fire - supposedly to destroy evidence.  It took weeks to identify her positively and then it was determined that she was still alive when set on fire, had smoke damage in her trachea.  Your first reaction would be death.   We don't have the death penalty here so it is ultimately moot, but the family would not want the death penalty.  It will not bring their mother back, they feel that living the rest of their life in a place where you are told what, when, and how to live your day is a greater hell.  So this is a long answer to say basically, my gut reaction might be eye for an eye, I ultimately am opposed to the death penalty.

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## WineKitty

As always, I am 100% against the death penalty and have held that stance for the majority of my life.

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## slytherin

> Same. For several reasons. 
> 
> 1) There are too many variables and mistakes that can be made. There are heaps of people that have been sentenced to death only to find out that person was innocent after they're already dead. 
> 2) It's actually cheaper to imprison someone for life than to give them the death penalty.
> 3) It's just cruel. Every human being has the right to life. If someone takes that right away from someone, how is it any better that we're taking away their life? 
> 4) Imprisonment for life is far worse than being killed. If I committed a horrific crime, I'd much rather be given the death penalty than have to spend the rest of my life in jail. 
> 
> So there are several ways of looking at it depending on which perspective you come from.



I was literally just about to post these exact same points. I agree completely!

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## Evo1114

> I'm for it for certain individuals. Serial killers caught in the act (caught with the evidence/corpses in their possession) for example. Or those who kill, serve out their sentence, then kill again. No trial or imprisonment needed...just kill em. I don't care about the method, leave that up to the individuals affected. Although there should be a wider variety of methods offered. I guess if they feel life in prison is worse, that's fine too. Vengeance belongs to the people, not to the "Lord".



This is where I stand as well.  People who are NO DOUBT guilty.  The Jeffrey Dahmers and Ted Bundys of the world.  I feel it is unjust for people to pay their hard earned money to keep scum like this alive.  Or let the victims family decide.

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## albrecht

I'm against capital punishment. Ideally justice should be based on repairing harm done. Also, the question of capital punishment is a question of who or what institutions should have the power to distribute death at their own will. The death penalty is a means of both punishment and intimidation. Legitimate power isn't based on intimidation. Punishment doesn't operate on the principle of repairing harm done.

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## Chantellabella

I'm going to regret this conversation big time because my view is not a popular one. I am 100% for the death penalty. 

When I counseled, I did so in the Juvenile Delinquency field. My field of study was criminal psychology, rate of recidivism, personality disorders, etc. I truly believe there are people who no matter what cannot be rehabilitated. If their crime was murder especially, I believe the best thing for both them and the victim's survivors is to take away the very thing they took away from some innocent person.

Yes, the murderer was once an innocent child, but something happened in their life to turn them to this action. If it was a "mistake" or crime of passion, I'm sorry, I still believe they should receive the highest penalty. 

Years ago DNA testing and other forensic evidence was not possible. There were more chances to make a mistake. I was more lenient then. But now, I feel the court systems tend to protect the criminals rather than protect the victims. I have absolutely no faith in the court systems who I believe allow criminals to get away more often than they should.  Personally I believe if anyone sets out to deliberately hurt another human being to the extent of murder, rape, or any other type of physical injury, that they should suffer in the same way. Also the rate of recidivism among people who have criminal mindsets are amazingly high. There's only about 10% who are status offenders who can be rehabilitated. The true criminals will commit a crime again. 

Furthermore, I believe white collar crime should also have a capital punishment sentence. These guys hurt more people than one lone guy hurting one lone victim. 

Do you know why there is little crime in many countries? Because the sentences for most offenses is death, dismemberment and other horrible forms of punishment. But you know.................a true criminal will only stop if he or she knows the consequence is worse than the reward of the crime. 

Ok. You guys may commence throwing stones.

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## whiteman

^So do you think the united states should execute children then.

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## life

im against the death penalty, for a few reasons
1) human rights should never be removed from people by a government, the biggest human right, is the right to life 
2) mistakes happen, usually to poor and ethnic minorities, DNA is not infallible, it can be contaminated, have unknown identical siblings and its possible that a totally unrelated person can have the same genome
3) corrupt police and officials

 chantellabella evidence from around the world shows less harsh penal systems and more rehabilitation cut crime, but societies with less crime are those that have a smaller gap between rich and poor, imho the problem with the USA is that social mobility is so low, if born poor you usually get a rubbish education, health care etc even work does not pay, as the minimum wage is not enough to live on, benefits are not enough to live on so what logical choice will some people make. Instead of making systemic changes, its easier to blame the poor, the poor need extreme punishment, i sometimes think its easier to look down on people, maybe if people empathised with the intolerable situations poor people are born into,then changes could be made, but its easier to put them into prison and to throw away the key, if punishment worked there would be no crime in America, poverty of oppurtunities and rights is the biggest crime, imagine all the potential that is wasted  ::(:

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## Chantellabella

Should the U.S. execute children? 

I feel for the child, but I happen to have seen a situation on both sides. A kid was being bullied. His uncle gave him a gun and told him to shoot the kid. The kid shot the boy dead in the driveway of another kid. Do I think the murderer was traumatized over this? Yes. Do I think the kid should get off scott free? No. He should be punished for the mistake. The way I see it, his life is over because if he was taught to deal with his problem by killing someone else, he's doomed to a life of [BEEP] anyway. His uncle should get the death penalty also. 

Why do I think he should be punished? Because it just so happened that kid shot his victim in front of other kids. As fate would have it, one of those kids who witnessed the crime was the son of someone who became friends with me. I didn't know her at the time of the murder. For decades I watched her and her son suffer on that trauma of watching someone be shot down in cold blood. The mother was there when he got shot and the child died in her arms. I saw what one stupid idiot's mistake and "way to cope" ruined many people's lives, including the child who pulled the trigger. Had that teen gotten off with a slap saying "don't do that," his stupid uncle and all the other stupid people running around who have no clue how to deal with life would be a potential mentor in solving another situation. I truly believe if we don't crack down on utter stupidity and utter disregard for consequences, we will continue to say it's alright to do things like that. It's not ok to deliberately hurt another. I guarantee if a kid committed murder some stupid adult was urging him on somewhere. Whether it be that the kid was victimized and is angry, or whether he or she is being told to do it. I'm sorry it's not a popular opinion, but yes, I believe kids and the people who contributed to that kid hurting someone should go to the chair. 

And before someone says, "what about the special needs kids?" This has been a trend for decades. Get the special needs kids to commit the crime. Mark me heartless, but yes, I believe the same consequence. Why? Because if the idiots who set out to hurt others, think they can use special needs kids, they will continue to do it. One or two examples that it doesn't work anymore would stop them from doing it. Oh, but the ones who put him or her up to it, should die in the electric chair first. 

Lastly, I don't equate poverty to murder. I was raised dirt poor. I had nothing. Then I ran away with a backpack and that's what I owned. I stole occasionally and prostituted occasionally. I did not say theft of bread is a capital offense. In fact, I believe white collar crimes where the rich steal from the poor should hold a death penalty. 

But if a poor person kills someone or rapes someone "because they are poor" why do they get a "get out of jail free" card? People can be poor and desperate and not kill or rape another. It has nothing to do with economics. It has to do with decency of a human being. 

I am not in the category of looking down on people in poverty. I simply don't think anyone should be allowed to get away with killing, raping, or hurting another person. 

As for human rights. My belief is if you take away someone's human rights, your human rights should be taken away. I have no qualms with the government doing it. Somebody has to. We could go back to medieval times and just cut the guy down or have a public hanging. But a victim should get the satisfaction of seeing the person who hurt them, taken down.

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## life

chantellabella, evidence from around the world clearly shows the exact opposite works, meaning a more just society has less crime and thus victims. chantellabella can you please answer this question, if children should be punished the same as adults, why do they require extra protection under law as they are not emotionally and mentally  not capable of making decisions eg age of consent, contract law, drinking etc, your argument is illogical. You come from texas, which is a tough society, maybe for some balance research other countries societies and penal systems especially European countries, you state 'I don't equate poverty to murder. I was raised dirt poor. I had nothing.  Then I ran away with a backpack and that's what I owned. I stole  occasionally and prostituted occasionally. I did not say theft of bread  is a capital offense. In fact, I believe white collar crimes where the  rich steal from the poor should hold a death penalty. But if a poor person kills someone or rapes someone "because they are  poor" why do they get a "get out of jail free" card?'  evidence shows cruel and unjust societies, create cruel and unjust people, ill state again if punishment worked, there would be no need for prisons as they would work as a deterent

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## Chantellabella

> chantellabella can you please answer this question, if children should be punished the same as adults, why do they require extra protection under law as they are not emotionally and mentally  not capable of making decisions eg age of consent, contract law, drinking etc, your argument is illogical.



Actually I think I'll pass on answering that question. My opinion was asked on capital punishment and I gave it.  ::):  I'm bowing out of the whole child age tangent.

But thanks Coffee for bringing up the subject. It's been interesting to see the views of everyone on such a tough debate. I'm a firm believer that people's opinions are formed by their life experiences and therefore everyone has a right to speak what they think and feel, no matter what others think. That's why I broached the subject. It's something I have strong beliefs about.

Hey, I warned you guys it wouldn't be a popular vote.  ::):  I am often in the devil's advocate position when it comes to tough choices. Let's just say I went to the school of hard knocks.

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## life

chantellabella please research other societies and penal systems, you may just change your mind

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## Chantellabella

> chantellabella please research other societies and penal systems, you may just change your mind



Actually don't need to. I'm pretty set in my ways and like what I think. 

Oh and just because I live in Texas doesn't mean I believe what another Texan believes. Heck! I can't stand barbecue. 

Funny how I can live in a state and not believe as the whole state believes. I'm just the biggest radical, huh?  ::):  

But thanks for the offer of enlightenment.

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## life

you state 'people's opinions are formed by their life experiences' living in a right wing society (USA) may have affected your opinions, that is all

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## Chantellabella

> you state 'people's opinions are formed by their life experiences' living in a right wing society (USA) may have affected your opinions, that is all



And not living as many years on this earth as I have may have affected your opinion also. Let's have this conversation 40 years from now, ok? On a Tuesday. :-)

I am now asking you to stop "telling" me what's wrong with my opinion and go back to the subject. Thanks! 

I truly have no answer why you or anyone else in this thread believes the way they do. It doesn't matter to me. What matters is the way I feel. Coffee asked. I answered. I don't feel broken or uninformed or in a close minded society. 

I am me. Just me. 

Oh but hey, thanks for listening. It means a lot.  ::):

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## life

chantellabella, im truly sorry if i offended you  ::(:

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## WintersTale

I'm starting to be against the death penalty, too. There are just so many factors that could be wrong.

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## Trendsetter

Against it. The justice system can be corrupt at times, and the worst case scenario would be the death penalty given to the wrong person, and that can be an irreversible act  :Crossed Arms:

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## Chantellabella

> chantellabella, im truly sorry if i offended you



No problem.  :Hug:  Sorry about the age crack. Please forgive me. It was rude for me to say that.

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## pam

> you state 'people's opinions are formed by their life experiences' living in a right wing society (USA) may have affected your opinions, that is all



Hey, I wouldn't say we (the whole US) are a right-wing society! (says the girl from NY)  :;):  . Each state, such as TX and NY have their own reputations for being more conservative or not. I am very liberal and have lived in 2 liberal states, CT & NY. Yes, Texas has a bad reputation, or I should say, has a reputation for being very FOR the death penalty. Also Bush was from there which really doesn't help. Not that that matters. 

During elections one can see it mapped out that when you look within each state, on the county level, you see that in the more populated places, it generally goes democrat, and in the less populated areas, it goes republican. Population and education seem to be higher in more liberal areas. So you can look at NY and think the whole state went for Obama, but really it was that he got more votes within the state, even if they were all concentrated around the 5 major cities.  

I'm pretty sure that the death penalty is technically legal in NY, but we just don't use it/don't execute people.

I think the death penalty is used as revenge, which is wrong. And that life imprisonment is good enough to keep serial killers, etc. separate from the rest of society. It's just not necessary to kill them.

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## Chantellabella

> Hey, I wouldn't say we (the whole US) are a right-wing society! (says the girl from NY)  . Each state, such as TX and NY have their own reputations for being more conservative or not. I am very liberal and have lived in 2 liberal states, CT & NY. Yes, Texas has a bad reputation, or I should say, has a reputation for being very FOR the death penalty. Also Bush was from there which really doesn't help. Not that that matters. 
> 
> During elections one can see it mapped out that when you look within each state, on the county level, you see that in the more populated places, it generally goes democrat, and in the less populated areas, it goes republican. Population and education seem to be higher in more liberal areas. So you can look at NY and think the whole state went for Obama, but really it was that he got more votes within the state, even if they were all concentrated around the 5 major cities.  
> 
> I'm pretty sure that the death penalty is technically legal in NY, but we just don't use it/don't execute people.
> 
> I think the death penalty is used as revenge, which is wrong. And that life imprisonment is good enough to keep serial killers, etc. separate from the rest of society. It's just not necessary to kill them.



Having a reputation, stereotype, residency in a state does not mean everyone who lives in that state agrees with it. Just fyi. 

AND as unbelievable as it seems, I believed the way I do decades before I moved to Texas.

Can we avoid the prejudiced comments about Texans? Just asking. 

Also

"The percentage of those who identified themselves as Democratic declined from 48 to 34 percent, while those who identified themselves as Republican rose dramatically from 19 to 33 percent. The number of independents, meanwhile, stayed consistent at about 33 percent. This data confirms one simple reason Republicans have made dramatic electoral gains during this period: a larger percentage of citizens consider themselves Republican than at earlier times.
Polling conducted in October, 2012 by the University of Texas at Austin in conjunction with the Texas Tribune revealed a roughly evenly divided electorate in terms of party identification. The numbers of self-identified registered voters who identified as either Republican or Democratic were nearly even, though somewhat more independents said they leaned Republican (15 percent) than said they leaned Democrat (10 percent). The overall number of independents was 12 percent-- returning us to the neighborhood of independent number in the historical data from recent years."

Texas Politics: 6 May 2013 
Â© 2009, Liberal Arts Instructional Technology Services
University of Texas at Austin
3rd Edition - Revision 34

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## WintersTale

I don't believe that every Texan is someone who is a stereotype. 

I get stereotyped because I'm from Cincinnati. Which is stupid, because I am not a hot dog loving sports fan who guzzles beer and cheers on the Bengals. I'm not even a Bengals fan!

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## life

imho The USA compared to most of europe and the world is a very right wing society, even the democrats can be argued to be more to the right than most political parties in europe and around the world (that doesn't mean everybody in the USA holds those views), but as a whole the laws, political system and social mores are to the right of most of the world, USA is the only 1 of 2 developed countries that executes people (except japan) no country in the EU executes anyone, why do people think the USA has a higher crime rate than most of the rest of the world and how does this higher crime rate affect the number of people sentenced to death

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## pam

Wow, I was just trying to explain to someone outside the US that we have a variety of states and that we aren't all the same, and that not everyone here is "right-wing". I am certainly in the minority, because I am probably more like the Europeans that they mentioned--my politics are like theirs from what little I've heard. You know--anti-gun, anti-death penalty, anti-American empire building. But I live here so I'm not the majority. So what? It's a free country and I can be as liberal as I want. 

But I see now that you explained it that from outside the US we look right-wing. I guess I was just saying that their are people within the US who are just as frustrated with the right-wing too. (It was meant in a light-hearted joking way. Maybe it didn't come across that way)

I wasn't trying to insult anyone--not here and not in Europe. The fact is....well, when is the last time TX went dem? Just like when's the last time NY went republican? We don't live in "battleground states". So my "stereotype" is based on some fact. Generalized facts. That is NOT being prejudiced.

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## Chantellabella

So..............

What I gather from this conversation is................

If somebody believes 100% in the death penalty there must be a reason why they would think so "illogical" (life). 

Oh yea, she lives in Texas! That explains it!

They're all poorly educated democrats (I mean after all, they DID elect Bush as their governor). Oh and every one of those dang crazy people own a gun and want to shoot anything that looks at them crooked. I guess it's all that heat and cactus and cow methane that makes those rednecks like that.

Ok................


Now you educated liberal worldly people continue on with your conversation. I get it. People who think differently than the majority have something  wrong with them. It just COULDN'T be their own personal beliefs. Of course it's where I live!! 

I see that now.

Thank you all for pointing out WHY I am so for the death penalty. I was thinking for the last 30 years that I was just crazy.

Oh and fyi.................I'm a Republican with two Masters Degrees and I believe that everyone who shoots or rapes another needs to be punished to the degree they inflicted harm on another. 

Now let me go chew some tobacco, hunt me a deer and rustle some cattle.  After all. I AM a Texan now. You know.............those stupid uninformed folk. Oh but that's one step above, being from Louisiana. We so stupid down there that we had an election for governor between a convicted felon and the grand wizard of the Klu Klux Klan. 

See? My opinion can't possibly have any meaning or importance. My genes are just too damned stupid and ill informed.

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## life

chantellabella you state 'If somebody believes 100% in the death penalty there must be a reason why they would think so "illogical" (life).' way to bring up an old disagreement that i thought had been settled  ::(:

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## pam

> So..............
> 
> What I gather from this conversation is................
> 
> If somebody believes 100% in the death penalty there must be a reason why they would think so "illogical" (life). 
> 
> Oh yea, she lives in Texas! That explains it!
> 
> They're all poorly educated democrats (I mean after all, they DID elect Bush as their governor). Oh and every one of those dang crazy people own a gun and want to shoot anything that looks at them crooked. I guess it's all that heat and cactus and cow methane that makes those rednecks like that.
> ...



No one said all of that stuff. You are saying things that I've never even heard of (like the cow gas reference). 

If you happen to agree with the death penalty, and you live in a state where they actually use it and like to use it, then what's the problem? Why are you getting defensive? I live in a liberal state where my views also happen to match the majority, so call me a bleeding heart liberal, and I won't care. 

I don't understand a lot of what you wrote so I don't know what to say.

I guess I was surprised about the thinking that it's ok to execute children. I have NEVER heard ANYone say that before. Never. And from what I know of you, I can't believe you said it. I am quite surprised. I guess that's what is really bothering me. I was trying not to get personal, and so I admit I wrongly brought TX into it. I thought only someone from TX could be so extreme as to think it's ok to execute children. So yeah, that was wrong. So instead I'll tell you the truth which is I cannot believe you think it's ok for children to be executed under any circumstances whatsoever. I'm still so shocked that I think you didn't really mean it....IDK.

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## WintersTale

Life, that's like assuming every Christian hates gay people.

I am Christian (Episcopalian), and I support gay rights. I'm also a liberal Democrat. 

If you want to argue that every GOP is like that, you would have a point, because a lot of the GOP are crazy.

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## life

^ please reread all my posts on this thread

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## Otherside

Not really American so I don't really know much about republican policies, although they seem to around screaming "Guns!!! FREEDOM!!!! Let's invade Iran!!! Low taxes!!! Don't worry that the rest of the worlds and this countries economy will be shot because we can't get enough cash in to keep this country going..." Or something. I don't know...a lot of over here just seemed to be "Thank god" when Obama was reelected. As it is, I'm somebody who just looked at the ballot paper at the last election and went "You know, I don't like any of these guys...".

Like the majority of people here though, I don't believe in the death penalty. End of. Unlike what the Daily Mail crap newspaper likes to make it seem. Although the odd racist middle-class obese prick who thinks praises queen and country and refuses to talk to the arab guy who works at the store who wants the death penalty back and for all the immigrants to be slaughtered, or whatever, isn't our country. 

Why they let Prisoners have Playstations in cell though, I don't know. EU wanted to give them the vote, at one point. They break the law, they don't respect it, and they're supposed to have a say in who rules???? Seriously, when you get prisoners liking the fact that they're in prison and reoffending to return, thats when you know somethings wrong with the system.

But I don't support the death penalty. Ever. Technically, it's still legal here for treason against the queen...or something, but I doubt it'd ever be enforced. There's still a load of stupid laws.

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## Chantellabella

> No one said all of that stuff. You are saying things that I've never even heard of (like the cow gas reference). 
> 
> If you happen to agree with the death penalty, and you live in a state where they actually use it and like to use it, then what's the problem? Why are you getting defensive? I live in a liberal state where my views also happen to match the majority, so call me a bleeding heart liberal, and I won't care. 
> 
> I don't understand a lot of what you wrote so I don't know what to say.
> 
> I guess I was surprised about the thinking that it's ok to execute children. I have NEVER heard ANYone say that before. Never. And from what I know of you, I can't believe you said it. I am quite surprised. I guess that's what is really bothering me. I was trying not to get personal, and so I admit I wrongly brought TX into it. I thought only someone from TX could be so extreme as to think it's ok to execute children. So yeah, that was wrong. So instead I'll tell you the truth which is I cannot believe you think it's ok for children to be executed under any circumstances whatsoever. I'm still so shocked that I think you didn't really mean it....IDK.



Some of the answers above are against what I believe and even upset me, but did you see me tell them their thinking is illogical or they think that way because they live in blah blah blah or are part of a political party?  I'm shocked by the answers of some of you. But I respectfully and graciously left them alone. After all, it is their right to believe as they do. I was asked an opinion and I gave one. Period. 

I'm pretty pissed at how it seems important in this thread to first come up with reasons why I believe as I do, and now the stones are really being thrown. I'm sorry you're bothered by my beliefs, but I have reasons why I believe that. 

Sorry you're shocked. Perhaps you didn't know me after all. 

Can people please get back to the subject. Hopefully not every one's opinion will be this scrutinized and judged. I mean, we ARE all different human beings and therefore have a right to our own opinions.

Oh and before anyone gives me a definition of debate..................this section is called "Philosophy and Debate." I was giving my philosophy........and not asking for debate. Those are two different things, btw. Maybe I should always give a disclaimer.........."I am posting my philosophy and not posting here for debate." Or maybe we should just split the two subjects on the top of this section because they are widely different. 

This is my philosophy. And no, I am not up for debate. 

Thank you.

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## WintersTale

Chant, you must be a more liberal Republican. Which is what I said.

The far right Republicans always act the same. They seem crazy for their guns, they support the death penalty, and they hate gay people and anything that's against their "bible" (not the same bible that I go to church and worship on every Sunday!)

If it's not you, you don't have to be offended.

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## pam

It's not personal to only you Cindy--I'd have a problem with anyone who thinks it's acceptable to execute _children_. I have the right to express my extreme opposition to that. I don't care if you don't agree. 

Anyone else have an opinion on the death penalty being applied to children? I mean, I can't even believe kids are part of this thread on the death penalty, but hey that's just me.

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## Chantellabella

I am not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone. Don't you guys see that? I have not once said any of you are wrong. 

It's not because I'm a Republican or Texan.

I'll tell you why I believe as I do.

I lost count of the times I've been raped after number 16. 
I lost 4 friends in gunfire because somebody wanted what they had.
I identified 6 dead kids during my time as a counselor because their parents couldn't be found. They belonged to the wrong gang. btw, gang members with guns are kids. 

I have no sympathy for these assailants. None. I don't care what age. The kids are hopeless anyway. 
Yes, I want revenge.

No, I don't want to waste my tax dollars feeding this scum. And I certainly don't want to buy them a Nintendo to while away their miserable lifetimes. 

THIS is why I believe as I do.

Just me. 

Ok. So how about people get off my case ok? 

When you're raped over 20 times, shot at, deliberately hurt or have someone you love killed in front of you, tell me how forgiving and "liberal" you are.

NOW I'm done with this conversation.

I won't be visiting this thread again. 

But hey....................thanks so much the respect. I really appreciate it.

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## WintersTale

> I am not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone. Don't you guys see that? I have not once said any of you are wrong. 
> 
> It's not because I'm a Republican or Texan.
> 
> I'll tell you why I believe as I do.
> 
> I lost count of the times I've been raped after number 16. 
> I lost 4 friends in gunfire because somebody wanted what they had.
> I identified 6 dead kids during my time as a counselor because their parents couldn't be found. They belonged to the wrong gang. btw, gang members with guns are kids. 
> ...



I'm so sorry that these things happened to you. I really hope this wasn't directed at me solely, because I wasn't trying to hurt your feelings. 

I feel terrible now. I hope you're okay.

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## Denise

^
|

IMO, revenge is something strictly personal. I don't think the government should be in charge of that.

The real issue here is that it makes absolutely no difference whether someone's sentenced to life in prison or the death penalty, so the following problems arise:

http://www.deathpenalty.org/section.php?id=24

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## WintersTale

Revenge is great on TV, but not in real life. 

When you have the ability to forgive others, that is when you will experience inner peace.

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## Chantellabella

I apologize for my words and behavior. It wasn't necessary for me to get angry. I would delete my words, but I wanted to take responsibility for them. 

So again, I'm sorry.

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## life

im sorry  chantellabella, i didnt know about the awful crimes perpetrated on you  :Hug:

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## meeps

> I truly believe there are people who no matter what cannot be rehabilitated. If their crime was murder especially, I believe the best thing for both them and the victim's survivors is to take away the very thing they took away from some innocent person.



I think I agree with this.

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## meeps

> Someone would have to be one hardcore serial rapist/molester for me to but them in the same category with murderers like you all do. But then again, i've never been molested or raped either. Even if i had, i can't really see wishing death upon the person before incarceration and rehabilitation.



Rape is kinda like torture..very similar...actually, I'd say it's a form of torture, so I would understand why a person who was raped might wish death upon the person who raped them.

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## WintersTale

> Rape is kinda like torture..very similar...actually, I'd say it's a form of torture, so I would understand why a person who was raped might wish death upon the person who raped them.



Agreed.

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## whiteman

Rape perpetrated by both genders is terrible.

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## Otherside

> Rape is kinda like torture..very similar...actually, I'd say it's a form of torture, so I would understand why a person who was raped might wish death upon the person who raped them.



Never been molested or raped, but I can see why someone might wish death on that person. But maybe that. I've never really been a victim of any sort of crime. I've never been mugged, house has never been robbed, never been attacked, and hopefully I'm not a victim of identity fraud and some lowlife is currently cleaning out my bank account as we speak. So I don't really know what to say, or if I can say anything, really. Me personally? I'm against the death penalty. I don't buy into the whole "Oh, but he had a tough past" so that's why he did it. Well [BEEP] that. I had a tough past too. I had a mentally ill mother. What she did wasn't her fault, but it was still upsetting. It wasn't anything major, but still. I've been bullied and outcasted pretty much throughout my school life. Am I turning around with a shotgun and shooting people or commiting any crimes??? No. I'm at home, trying my goddamn hardest to live my life, and I don't feel any need to go shooting people. Or this violent video games thing? Again, no. I've played violent video games. I don't care what a study says, it doesn't excuse a persons actions. In the end we are all human beings. We all know right from wrong even if we somewhat deny it, and we all know what we did. 

That a person should be forgiven for what they did in some cases, especially if they're showing no remorse, is incomprehensible. It's the persons choices that led them to do what they did. Not genetics, not there past, or video games, or listening to heavy metal music, or whatever. We all have a choice. For some people, making that choice is harder than for others, but that's no excuse for destroying other peoples lives.

But is it right to kill them? I don't know. My guts telling me "No", but then I don't think the system we have in this country works much either.

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## compulsive

For A) proven serial killers (separate occasions/ times) AND  B) didnt people who where attacking / abusing this person, yes. If they did it several times, it obviously wasn't an accident, they obviously were not sorry. If the person killed and killed just because they wanted something, then they cannot be rehabilitated. Also *must be proven without a doubt.*

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## Trendsetter

> Never been molested or raped, but I can see why someone might wish death on that person. But maybe that. I've never really been a victim of any sort of crime. I've never been mugged, house has never been robbed, never been attacked, and hopefully I'm not a victim of identity fraud and some lowlife is currently cleaning out my bank account as we speak. So I don't really know what to say, or if I can say anything, really. Me personally? I'm against the death penalty. I don't buy into the whole "Oh, but he had a tough past" so that's why he did it. Well [BEEP] that. I had a tough past too. I had a mentally ill mother. What she did wasn't her fault, but it was still upsetting. It wasn't anything major, but still. I've been bullied and outcasted pretty much throughout my school life. Am I turning around with a shotgun and shooting people or commiting any crimes??? No. I'm at home, trying my goddamn hardest to live my life, and I don't feel any need to go shooting people. Or this violent video games thing? Again, no. I've played violent video games. I don't care what a study says, it doesn't excuse a persons actions. In the end we are all human beings. We all know right from wrong even if we somewhat deny it, and we all know what we did. 
> 
> That a person should be forgiven for what they did in some cases, especially if they're showing no remorse, is incomprehensible. It's the persons choices that led them to do what they did. Not genetics, not there past, or video games, or listening to heavy metal music, or whatever. We all have a choice. For some people, making that choice is harder than for others, but that's no excuse for destroying other peoples lives.
> 
> But is it right to kill them? I don't know. My guts telling me "No", but then I don't think the system we have in this country works much either.



Agreed...even I were to be a victim of crimes, violent acts, etc., I just cannot bring myself to wish death on the assailants. It's understandable that the victim may want their attacker to feel remorseful for whatever wrongdoing they did, but in my opinion, going as far as wishing them to die would be as horrible as the perpetrator committing these harsh actions in the first place. So I'd rather take the high road. Revenge solves nothing.

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## WintersTale

Serial killers and rapists generally have a lack of empathy towards other people. 

I'm sorry, but rape isn't about sex. I've seen plenty of hot girls out there, and felt like I wanted to have sex with them. I'm still a virgin, oh, and I haven't raped anybody. I find that sick and deplorable. 

I've had it argued to me that picking up drunk chicks at a bar isn't rape. I'm sorry, but it is. Someone who is intoxicated, and can't fully consent, is being raped. It's ridiculous how many guys believe the contrary.

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## Otherside

> Serial killers and rapists generally have a lack of empathy towards other people. 
> 
> I'm sorry, but rape isn't about sex. I've seen plenty of hot girls out there, and felt like I wanted to have sex with them. I'm still a virgin, oh, and I haven't raped anybody. I find that sick and deplorable. 
> 
> I've had it argued to me that picking up drunk chicks at a bar isn't rape. I'm sorry, but it is. Someone who is intoxicated, and can't fully consent, is being raped. It's ridiculous how many guys believe the contrary.



Yer, rape is about power, not sex. I've had it argue to me as well that it's okay to pick up a drunk woman at a bar, and then its not okay for the woman to press charges. Christ, if she's intoxicated, then yeah. It's rape. It's argued a lot, that. But heck, I can't see how taking advantage of a drunken woman who you know probably won't be okay with you having sex in the first place is okay. I suppose you could argue that she shouldn't have gotten drunk. But why shouldn't she? She's an adult, she has the right to get drunk. But then I guess she knew the consequences of getting drunk too. It's a grey area. But I'm more for rape being about power rather than sex.

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## WintersTale

> Yer, rape is about power, not sex. I've had it argue to me as well that it's okay to pick up a drunk woman at a bar, and then its not okay for the woman to press charges. Christ, if she's intoxicated, then yeah. It's rape. It's argued a lot, that. But heck, I can't see how taking advantage of a drunken woman who you know probably won't be okay with you having sex in the first place is okay. I suppose you could argue that she shouldn't have gotten drunk. But why shouldn't she? She's an adult, she has the right to get drunk. But then I guess she knew the consequences of getting drunk too. It's a grey area. But I'm more for rape being about power rather than sex.



The only people that argue it isn't rape are people that couldn't get sex the normal way.

Who am I to talk? But, christ, at least I don't feel like raping someone to get it. I'd rather spread good rather than evil.

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## meeps

> Agreed...even I were to be a victim of crimes, violent acts, etc., I just cannot bring myself to wish death on the assailants. It's understandable that the victim may want their attacker to feel remorseful for whatever wrongdoing they did, but in my opinion, *going as far as wishing them to die would be as horrible as the perpetrator committing these harsh actions in the first place.* So I'd rather take the high road. Revenge solves nothing.



 I'm not really sure it's all about revenge. Some people are just a danger to society. they cause nothing but misery and destruction. Revenge would be to make them suffer just as much as they've made their victims suffer (aka torture), not a quick death.

to the bolded: I really, really disagree with this. A victim or family/friend of the victim wishing death upon the assailant is totally not on par with the psychopathic actions of the torturer/murderer/etc. It's logical and completely understandable to want someone like that out of the world, so they can't harm another person. Some people have lost too much of their humanity, and don't really deserve to live, imo.

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## WintersTale

> I'm not really sure it's all about revenge. Some people are just a danger to society. they cause nothing but misery and destruction. Revenge would be to make them suffer just as much as they've made their victims suffer (aka torture), not a quick death.
> 
> to the bolded: I really, really disagree with this. A victim or family/friend of the victim wishing death upon the assailant is totally not on par with the psychopathic actions of the torturer/murderer/etc. It's logical and completely understandable to want someone like that out of the world, so they can't harm another person. Some people have lost too much of their humanity, and don't really deserve to live, imo.



It depends on what people assume to be righteous.

A lot of people assume that people fit into a perfect box, and anybody who doesn't is "sick." Look at all the people who rallied against Marilyn Manson, or Harry Potter.

I am not comparing the two, but to some people, their view of "normal" is skewed, and they're just as sick as the ones who end up in the news. There are different types of crazy, and not all of them are locked behind bars. Some of them are in our government.

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## whiteman

[QUOTE=WintersTale;281564]


*I've had it argued to me that picking up drunk chicks at a bar isn't rape. I'm sorry, but it is. Someone who is intoxicated, and can't fully consent, is being raped. It's ridiculous how many guys believe the contrary.[/*QUOTE]

What if the man is as drunk as the, "drunk chick" ? Would they simultaneously be both rape victims and rape perpetrators? What if the man had a higher blood alcohol content than the women? If he had a higher BAC than her, then I assume, she would be the rapist? or do you believe men can't be raped by women; therefore, the man is always the rapist and the woman is always the victim regardless of their relative blood alcohol contents?

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## WintersTale

> What if the man is as drunk as the, "drunk chick" ? Would they simultaneously be both rape victims and rape perpetrators? What if the man had a higher blood alcohol content than the women? If he had a higher BAC than her, then I assume, she would be the rapist? or do you believe men can't be raped by women; therefore, the man is always the rapist and the woman is always the victim regardless of their relative blood alcohol contents?



If both are drunk, then neither are taking advantage of each other. 

What is troubling is when you have one person who is intoxicated, and one who is not. That is similar to rape, because one is in control and one can't control themselves. It's an abuse of power.

And a lot of guys joke about roofies and things like that, but the amount of guys who actually do [BEEP] like that is mind boggling, and troubling....

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## whiteman

I know it happens, but who would want to have sex with someone who is passed out? The best part of sex really is that someone thinks you're as awsome as you think they are?

and I'm against the death penalty because I think a society should strive to be better than the worst of its members

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## meeps

> It depends on what people assume to be righteous.
> 
> A lot of people assume that people fit into a perfect box, and anybody who doesn't is "sick." Look at all the people who rallied against Marilyn Manson, or Harry Potter.
> 
> I am not comparing the two, but to some people, their view of "normal" is skewed, and they're just as sick as the ones who end up in the news. There are different types of crazy, and not all of them are locked behind bars. Some of them are in our government.



I was talking about serial killers and rapists, crimes like that.

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## WintersTale

> I was talking about serial killers and rapists, crimes like that.



I'm just saying some people consider fans of Harry Potter as demented as serial killers and rapists, and they generally are demented themselves. Not the Harry Potter fans.

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## Otherside

> I know it happens, but who would want to have sex with someone who is passed out? The best part of sex really is that someone thinks you're as awsome as you think they are?
> 
> and I'm against the death penalty because I think a society should strive to be better than the worst of its members



As Winterstale said before, not that this in anyway excuses it, people who can't get sex any other way. The only way to have sex-have sex with someone who's passed out.





> I'm just saying some people consider fans of Harry Potter as demented as serial killers and rapists, and they generally are demented themselves. Not the Harry Potter fans.



I think there's a word for these kind of people. Assholes. They're generally not that great to be around.

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## life

in the uk its rape it you sleep with anyone who is incapable of giving consent, of either sex, through drugs, drink or a vulnerable person

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## whiteman

For all the people in this thread who are for the death penalty: do you think all the citizens, politicians, and military leaders responsible for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan should get the death penalty for the deaths of the over a hundred thousands civilains, including tens of thousands of children since those wars began?

I ask because usually the same people for the death penalty are also the same people who support the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

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