Random Political Thoughts

[Cuchculan]

Why not pretend it never happened. That is exactly what the Irish were once told by a member of the British Royal family. To simply move on and forget about it. That the British killed so many Irish in their 800 years of rule here in Ireland. It is our history. The fact that we began to fight back, We have lots of dead war heroes. People we don't want to forget. As for flags? You should see the North of Ireland. It is divided. Catholic and Protestant. Each have their own groups. Republicans and Loyalists. Catholics wants to be part of the Republic. Protestants want to be part of the UK. One flag was removed once and it caused many nights of rioting. Lot of hard line Republicans ( They would be the Catholics ) and hard line Loyalists / Unionists ( They would be the Protestants ) just look for any excuse to riot. You hand them one and they will gladly take it. Turn it back against you. If visiting the North of Ireland you have got to know your flags and football tops. Or else you could end up in the wrong area wearing the wrong top. The band Megadeth found this out the hard way. They were playing in a Loyalist / Protestant area and didn't have a clue. Said ' this next song is for the Republican cause '. Broke out in the song ' Holy Wars '. That caused a full scale riots. Lead singer had his head split open with bottles thrown at him. Later he said he was dumb. He thought he knew what he was doing. But knows now that he hadn't got a clue of the whole political situation in the North of Ireland. You could be walking down a normal looking road. Suddenly you come across a ten foot wall in the middle of that road. Simple really. One side is Catholic and the other Protestant. Protestant male once took a shortcut through a Catholic housing estate. He was kicked to death. Not by Catholics. By Protestants who were hunting Catholics out. They killed one of their own. That can the North of Ireland for you. Wrong place / wrong time. Dead. Although the peace process is in place, it is still a tip toe situation. Protestants have their marching season. Why march? To celebrate battles won against Catholics. Only they like to march through Catholic areas. Which has been stopped over the past few years. The riots it used to cause. But flags play a major role in all that goes on in the North of Ireland. Many different flags meaning many different things. It would be silly to remove any of these flags. Even the ones, as an Irishman, I don't like. Why? Because it would cause a lot of trouble. Could result in deaths. Both sides have worked hard over the past decade or so. Things are not as bad as they once were. Bombs and shootings and the likes. Some groups from each area meet together and talk about their common problems. They see they both suffer in the exact same way. Whilst others like to continue on fighting and will never stop no matter what. Because they are simply full of nothing but hatred. It is what they are thought at a young age. To hate the other side. Break that cycle and we could have an answer.

[InvisibleGuy]

History books and the Internet are all well and good but what proof will have that any of this happened in several years time? All you have is your word. You've torn down the proof that these things happened and people celebrated that. You've left the future with a text book and your word. You think you have problems now with racism? Ohh, you'll have problems in several generations time. You just made sure there was nothing left that proved anything happened.

How many people already deny the past? It's harder to deby it when the proof is right there. Look these people were celebrated. And this is why it was wrong. You want me to a Google? How about a google on holocaust denial, and you'll see how many deny something when there isn't proof. Or the people who fully support the actions of North Korea, the majority of which we know from peoples words. There will be a greater number of people who refuse to believe when we rely only on someone else's word - particularly when that word is second hand. Q

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History books should be enough proof for anyone. Countless biographies and autobiographies of former slaves. That's proof that it happened, and erecting a statue is no more or less proof that it happened than a history book. If anything history books are actually better proof that it all happened.

The difference is that anyone that wants these memorials to stay up imo wants to glorify and memorialize the men that supported and promoted slavery....one of the most evil and darkest parts of this countries history. There is only one real reason why I can think anyone would want to celebrate the life of someone who promoted slavery and fought for the confederacy through a statue....it's because they themselves are racist imo. They may say they're not, they might deny it, but imo actions speak louder than words, and if your actions say that these memorials should be left in place, that to me is very, very racist. There are people, a lot of people that hide behind the lame excuses...it's a part of my heritage, my culture, it's a part of history that can't be denied.

Let's be real. The real reason anyone wants these left up is because they're racist imo. Just call a spade a spade, call it for what it is. Anyone that was against racism would want statues that glorify and memorialize these men taken down. It really is that simple, and it has nothing to do with a statue in a park reminding us that slavery happened, that has got to be the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

[kevinjoseph]

Agreed InvisibleGuy. Well-put.

[Otherside]

History books should be enough proof for anyone. Countless biographies and autobiographies of former slaves. That's proof that it happened, and erecting a statue is no more or less proof that it happened than a history book. If anything history books are actually better proof that it all happened.

The difference is that anyone that wants these memorials to stay up imo wants to glorify and memorialize the men that supported and promoted slavery....one of the most evil and darkest parts of this countries history. There is only one real reason why I can think anyone would want to celebrate the life of someone who promoted slavery and fought for the confederacy through a statue....it's because they themselves are racist imo. They may say they're not, they might deny it, but imo actions speak louder than words, and if your actions say that these memorials should be left in place, that to me is very, very racist. There are people, a lot of people that hide behind the lame excuses...it's a part of my heritage, my culture, it's a part of history that can't be denied.

Let's be real. The real reason anyone wants these left up is because they're racist imo. Just call a spade a spade, call it for what it is. Anyone that was against racism would want statues that glorify and memorialize these men taken down. It really is that simple, and it has nothing to do with a statue in a park reminding us that slavery happened, that has got to be the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

Excuse me? You just called me, Cuchculan, ironman and anyone who disagrees with you flat out racist, without bothering to consider the opposing view.

You have a riot and you think you have the sole right to determine what is and isn't racist. Good for you.

You forget, or maybe didn't bother to find out, me and Cuchculan live through this. Read his post on northern Ireland. That situation has seeped into both here and southern Ireland for the last century. We've dealt with terrorists, riots, idiots who put the racists in government, peace deals that are "making deals with terrorists." and so fall apart before they even begin. We have morons marching through the streets in orange terrorising people because they live in the wrong part of Belfast. You take down a protestant mural? The first thing that happens is a brick ends up through the window of a Catholic church.

You've got two people on here who've dealt with riots for a longer time than America has telling you you're making a bad move, that this situation will be and is more complicated than yours making it out to be. You're insistent we're not "because racism". Sure. Go for it. Anyone who disagrees with you is racist.

You keep saying I am supporting slavery. I am not. Ironman is not. Cuchculan is not. Get that into your head. Stop lightly throwing around those terms because people did not instantly agree with you.

Confederate history or heritage is not mine. Why? Look to the left. "Location" should tell you exactly why. I can't celebrate a history or heritage that isn't mine. I celebrate my own. Not somebody else's.

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[Cuchculan]

Slow down a minute here folks. Otherside you are not racist. Neither am I or Ironman. We have views on what will lead to more trouble. We have seen it happen over this side of the world already. In Northern Ireland. Which then even jumped to England. Can I add in that in the 60's and 70's in England, in shop windows, the signs always read ' No blacks, No Irish, No Dogs '. So the Irish became known as the blacks of Europe. We shared houses with blacks in England. Both lots of people stood together and helped each other out. Why? Because we were hated. To call an Irishman racist is an insult. Just because I have opinion on what will lead to worse trouble. We have lived through what you are only starting to enter now. You think it will get better? Think again. @Otherside you are doing a great job on here. This is not a good enough reason to make you quit. He sees things as he imagines them to be in the near future. A future we have already lived through due to the same mistakes been made. I may not be black in skin colour, but by history I am, and I am proud to be black too. In the Irish way.

[InvisibleGuy]

Once again....

Let's be real. The real reason anyone wants these left up is because they're racist imo. Just call a spade a spade, call it for what it is. Anyone that was against racism would want statues that glorify and memorialize these men taken down. It really is that simple, and it has nothing to do with a statue in a park reminding us that slavery happened, that has got to be the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

I never called anyone racist. But, imo, like I've already said....if you support keeping the statues up, if you support immortalizing and honoring and memorializing those that fought to make slaves of human beings then in my mind you are racist. As. Fuq. That goes for anyone and everyone that supports it. There are no exceptions, I don't care if you have one or two good reasons for leaving them up. The overall message is they're being honored, revered, respected and admired by those that want to keep the statues up....honored for wanting to enslave other human beings. That should outweigh everything else. This is something that imo, my kids would be able to understand, to grasp at a very, veeeery young age.

[Cuchculan]

What about those groups who like to go out and recreate famous battles during the Civil War. They meant to take up knitting now? LOL Won't be much fun for them if the Confederate soldiers are not allowed be there any more.

[Lunaire]

History books should be enough proof for anyone. Countless biographies and autobiographies of former slaves. That's proof that it happened, and erecting a statue is no more or less proof that it happened than a history book. If anything history books are actually better proof that it all happened.

The difference is that anyone that wants these memorials to stay up imo wants to glorify and memorialize the men that supported and promoted slavery....one of the most evil and darkest parts of this countries history. There is only one real reason why I can think anyone would want to celebrate the life of someone who promoted slavery and fought for the confederacy through a statue....it's because they themselves are racist imo. They may say they're not, they might deny it, but imo actions speak louder than words, and if your actions say that these memorials should be left in place, that to me is very, very racist. There are people, a lot of people that hide behind the lame excuses...it's a part of my heritage, my culture, it's a part of history that can't be denied.

Let's be real. The real reason anyone wants these left up is because they're racist imo. Just call a spade a spade, call it for what it is. Anyone that was against racism would want statues that glorify and memorialize these men taken down. It really is that simple, and it has nothing to do with a statue in a park reminding us that slavery happened, that has got to be the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

Hey @InvisibleGuy ,

Please avoid making blanket statements like this. Regardless of your opinion on the matter, there are undoubtedly people who would disagree with you who are not racist. For example: someone might want these statues and memorials to be left up for their cultural and historical importance.

You may not agree with the original intentions of these monuments but nonetheless they are still a part of the country's history and some people want that to be preserved. If you disagree with this then please stick to providing evidence to refute this notion or state why you believe they should be taken down rather than resorting to ad hominem arguments.

[InvisibleGuy]

Hey @InvisibleGuy ,

Please avoid making blanket statements like this. Regardless of your opinion on the matter, there are undoubtedly people who would disagree with you who are not racist. For example: someone might want these statues and memorials to be left up for their cultural and historical importance.

You may not agree with the original intentions of these monuments but nonetheless they are still a part of the country's history and some people want that to be preserved. If you disagree with this then please stick to providing evidence to refute this notion or state why you believe they should be taken down rather than resorting to ad hominem arguments.

Understood.

I did, however state why they should be taken down, several times over. Statues are not erected for just anyone, and a statue to memorialize someone is not just to "remember the past"....it's meant to honor an individual for the work, progress, advancements, ideas they stood for while they were alive. So. Why would anyone want to leave a statue honoring someone's life work to legalize enslaving other human beings? Why would anyone promote that, unless they were racist?

Also, as I mentioned before, I agree there might be other reasons to want to keep the statues up (heritage, cultural reasons) but the fact that these statues are meant to honor men that promoted slavery should outweigh any other reasons. I think that should be blatantly obvious to anyone, everyone.

[Lunaire]

Understood.

I did, however state why they should be taken down, several times over. Statues are not erected for just anyone, and a statue to memorialize someone is not just to "remember the past"....it's meant to honor an individual for the work, progress, advancements, ideas they stood for while they were alive. So. Why would anyone want to leave a statue honoring someone's life work to legalize enslaving other human beings? Why would anyone promote that, unless they were racist?

Also, as I mentioned before, I agree there might be other reasons to want to keep the statues up (heritage, cultural reasons) but the fact that these statues are meant to honor men that promoted slavery should outweigh any other reasons. I think that should be blatantly obvious to anyone, everyone.

If you feel strongly about trying not to honor the original intentions then there are some alternatives to demolishing them. Some examples might be to include a plaque condemning the actions of the people that erected the monument but stating the historical context for them and considering it a cultural heritage site. Another example may be to transport them to a museum.

As @Otherside mentioned there are historical monuments from the Third Reich that were left up in Europe for their historical value. This doesn't mean that those countries are honoring the actions of Adolf Hitler or that they are all racist... they were left up both as a warning to future generations and for their historical importance.

[InvisibleGuy]

If you feel strongly about trying not to honor the original intentions then there are some alternatives to demolishing them. Some examples might be to include a plaque condemning the actions of the people that erected the monument but stating the historical context for them and considering it a cultural heritage site. Another example may be to transport them to a museum.

As @Otherside mentioned there are historical monuments from the Third Reich that were left up in Europe for their historical value. This doesn't mean that those countries are honoring the actions of Adolf Hitler or that they are all racist... they were left up both as a warning to future generations and for their historical importance.

Fair enough. I disagree though. I think leaving up monuments that (even at one time) honored the third reich is a really dangerous idea, it's misguided, and some may have good intentions but it's completely the wrong way to go about it.

I'm not the only one that thinks exactly as I do wrt this subject by the way lol. There are millions and millions of Americans of all races and creeds and age and from all walks of life that want all of these statues removed. There are valid reasons why they should be removed according to the millions of Americans that feel the same way I do. Reasons I've already spelled out over and over again in this thread

I'll refrain from making blanket statements if it makes everyone feel better, but there are times in life when blanket statements apply. Racism is racism, and supporting the memorialization of slave owners is, in my mind, racist. I'm not going to change my mind about that.

I appreciate you suggesting alternative solutions to removing the statues, but as I've already said there are millions and millions of Americans who want them removed, and we won't settle for anything less. And we shouldn't.

[Lunaire]

Fair enough. I disagree though. I think leaving up monuments that (even at one time) honored the third reich is a really dangerous idea, it's misguided, and some may have good intentions but it's completely the wrong way to go about it.

I'm not the only one that thinks exactly as I do wrt this subject by the way lol. There are millions and millions of Americans of all races and creeds and age and from all walks of life that want all of these statues removed. There are valid reasons why they should be removed according to the millions of Americans that feel the same way I do. Reasons I've already spelled out over and over again in this thread

I'll refrain from making blanket statements if it makes everyone feel better, but there are times in life when blanket statements apply. Racism is racism, and supporting the memorialization of slave owners is, in my mind, racist. I'm not going to change my mind about that.

I appreciate you suggesting alternative solutions to removing the statues, but as I've already said there are millions and millions of Americans who want them removed, and we won't settle for anything less. And we shouldn't.

It's fine to disagree and I'm not trying to support one side or the other on the issue -- I mainly wanted to provide some potentially valid reasons why someone would want to leave them up other than 'they are racist'.

You may feel that the memorials stand for a racist ideology, but to claim that every single person that wants to leave them up is racist is simply not true.

Absolute statements are dangerous and unfortunately things are very rarely black and white. if your argument is strong enough you should be able to undermine the opposing view without resorting to comments about their personal character.

[InvisibleGuy]

It's fine to disagree and I'm not trying to support one side or the other on the issue -- I mainly wanted to provide some potentially valid reasons why someone would want to leave them up other than 'they are racist'.

You may feel that the memorials stand for a racist ideology, but to claim that every single person that wants to leave them up is racist is simply not true.

Absolute statements are dangerous and unfortunately things are very rarely black and white. if your argument is strong enough you should be able to undermine the opposing view without resorting to comments about their personal character.

And I have.

I've stated that even if someone's main reason for wanting to leave the statues up is to "remind us of the past"...they should consider other ways of going about it that don't also memorialize and honor the men that promoted slavery. I pointed out that there are other ways to do it, through history books, through biographies, autobiographies of former slaves, through historical internet sites.

There are people, however, who insist that the best way to teach and remind us of history is through statues that glorify and immortalize former slave owners.

I find that to be very, very curious, when we have history books, and all these other ways of reminding us and educating us about the past. There are people that are hellbent on finding the only way to do that, that also memorializes slave owners. Wow. Why is that.....

[Lunaire]

And I have.

I've stated that even if someone's main reason for wanting to leave the statues up is to "remind us of the past"...they should consider other ways of going about it that don't also memorialize and honor the men that promoted slavery. I pointed out that there are other ways to do it, through history books, through biographies, autobiographies of former slaves, through historical internet sites.

There are people, however, who insist that the best way to teach and remind us of history is through statues that glorify and immortalize former slave owners.

I find that to be very, very curious, when we have history books, and all these other ways of reminding us and educating us about the past. There are people that are hellbent on finding the only way to do that, that also memorializes slave owners. Wow. Why is that.....

As a site administrator everything I say becomes a direct reflection of the site's official standpoint, whether it be intentional or not. My prior points were an attempt to try to foster more lighthearted discussion on the matter and to deescalate things as they had become a bit heated.

Unfortunately I don't feel that I can come up with an adequate response to your questioning here without coming across as supporting one side on the issue so I will invite others on this board that may disagree to chime in with their thoughts.

[Cuchculan]

Wonder has he even read a word I wrote about Northern Ireland? That is how I can the US going. A big divide. Two sides. Who knows what levels that divide will reach? In the North of Ireland there was killings for years. Bombings. So much hatred between two sides. Is this were the US is heading towards? One side has a go at the other side. The other side hits back. Marches begin. Through areas were the other side live. Riots break out on a regular basis. The police? They also become targets. Why? Both sides see them as doing nothing for them. Doing more for the other side. They begin to remove symbols thinking this will help. It never does help. Only serves to make things much worse. That last point was the main thing that those against what you were saying were only trying to point out. It is not racist to say such a thing. Point out something that might happen in the future. That we have seen happen over here. I would rather they let them have their murals up North here and fly their flags rather than see people die. Is it wrong of me to say that? That I prefer to see people not been killed over flags and murals? I do see the North of Ireland as still been Irish. But it is not worth dying over. Too many people have lost their lives over the years. If they handed the North back tomorrow more would die as a direct result of it. Because some people in the North want to be part of the UK. They would kill for their cause. Would people kill for their cause in the US if it went too far? Over a flag and statues. Not talking a whole State here. Only takes a few to kick things off. One bomb in the right place and it would begin. One shooting of a big name. It is not outside the realms of possibility. That was the point I was making. That was the point Otherside was making too. It could lead to something much bigger. Two ethnic groups who begin to really hate each other. Ticking time bomb.