US Politics

[Member11]

If a government passes a law restricting organically grown seeds then that is government interventionism and not a free market economy. I am not aware of a western country that has banned organically grown crops, but the United States certainly has not.

I'm talking about what happens in the real world, not just theory. And you should look into what Monsanto does.

You also certainly do not need to operate a full time store with a supply chain and logistics to sell things out of a backyard garden. Farm-side fruit stands and pop-up style farmers markets are quite popular in the states and do not require all of the costs you have mentioned.

That's great and all, but not going to help solve the monopoly issue.

Even if a corporation would sell things at a loss to attempt to drive out local farmers, the local farmers could very easily re-enter the market as soon the corporation began selling at "regular" price again due to low cost of entry.

Not if the farmer has been bankrupted and commit suicide. Common problem seen throughout the world

This would cause a boom and bust cycle which is actually pretty common in free trade markets, especially regarding produce.

A corporation using its market power to kill competition isn't normal.

Internet access is not required to apply for every job in the United States.

With jobs hard to come by hoping to come across one of those rare jobs isn't a realistic thing one could do.

[Total Eclipse]

Internet access is not required to apply for every job in the United States. There are plenty of businesses that accept handwritten applications and there are numerous locations that provide free internet access such as public wi-fi at businesses and free-to-use terminals at public libraries.

This is a pretty good point. Also, we have machines here just-for-applying for jobs. If you go to a location (i.e target or retail store) you can apply for jobs as well as generic machines in stores. For example @Jerry , here is a machine that many stores are loaded onto.. and people can apply for jobs through:

https://blog.publix.com/careers/file...12/DSC0539.jpg

These are of no cost and are in many local stores.

Given there are so many options to apply for jobs (the ones that don't accept had written applications) internet is still an luxury. We also have free programs that help people find jobs (they get you suits, fresh up your resume for you, free printing ability for the resume) ~

[Lunaire]

I'm talking about what happens in the real world, not just theory. And you should look into what Monsanto does.



That's great and all, but not going to help solve the monopoly issue.



Not if the farmer has been bankrupted and commit suicide. Common problem seen throughout the world



A corporation using its market power to kill competition isn't normal.



With jobs hard to come by hoping to come across one of those rare jobs isn't a realistic thing one could do.

I am well aware of Monsanto and even though I dislike many of their business practices I am pretty sure that even they do not have the power to prevent me from growing organically grown crops in my own backyard to give to my neighbors.

Let's just say we have a fundamental disagreement on reality and call it a day.

[Total Eclipse]

I'm talking about what happens in the real world, not just theory. And you should look into what Monsanto does.

So far, 27 countries have banned Monsanto. It's being widely discouraged what they are doing and there is a huge fight back. I can't see every organic seed dying out.

[Ironman]

Monsanto has gotten themselves into some troubles over the years.

[Member11]

I am well aware of Monsanto and even though I dislike many of their business practices I am pretty sure that even they do not have the power to prevent me from growing organically grown crops in my own backyard to give to my neighbors.

So far, 27 countries have banned Monsanto. It's being widely discouraged what they are doing and there is a huge fight back. I can't see every organic seed dying out.

I'm not talking about what you can grow in your backyard, I'm talking about businesses and markets at scale. Your grenden isn't going to feed millions of people. If a company wanted to come in and start growing food, it is near impossible for them to compete against Monsanto as the new business can not use Monsanto seeds otherwise it gets sued and it can't match Monsanto on pricing as non-patented non-GMO seeds has much lower yields and higher spoils, which means it will cost more.

The new business might be able to win over some people who buy fruit and vegetables, and go out their way to buy organically and/or want to support small business, but lets be honest that isn't how most people eat food. There is no way that new business can new over the processed and fast food companies, it just not going to happen. That is a monopoly and market failure. Plus quite danger to food security to have one company controlling the food supply for millions of people.

Let's just say we have a fundamental disagreement on reality and call it a day.

I don't know your reality in which monopolies are awesome, misuse of market power is normal and small business is crushed and not allowed in the market. This is my reality I'm a businessman and I believe in free markets and fair competition. Corporations doesn't like free markets and competition, and will do anything to kill it to retain its monopoly.

I started up and ran a successful business selling computer parts, I built up a good customer following as I offered the best customer service and longer warranties (this was before the Australian government force businesses to extend warranties). My success didn't go down well with a large corporation which I was completing against. Instead of completing right and try to win back the customers it lost, it used its market power to shut me down. First cutting prices to below cost, which hurt badly but luckily I had a supportive customer base.

But my luck ran out when the corporation made an expensive deal with the US corporations which was supplying both of us, the corporation got the suppliers to cut me off by making itself the exclusive supplier, which meant I had to buy my stock off the same corporation that I was completing against. And of course the corporation made sure I didn't have products to sell, killing me off completely.

I believe in real business, free markets and economics where it is the customer who chooses where they put their money and in the process chooses what business lives or dies. If you want to live in a reality where corporations has that power, and as a result you get crappy jobs and products, have fun and enjoy it. But I choose to live in a reality full of small businesses owned by people who care about their business, customers and staff.

[Ironman]

I don't know your reality in which monopolies are awesome, misuse of market power is normal and small business is crushed and not allowed in the market. This is my reality I'm a businessman and I believe in free markets and fair competition. Corporations doesn't like free markets and competition, and will do anything to kill it to retain its monopoly.

I started up and ran a successful business selling computer parts, I built up a good customer following as I offered the best customer service and longer warranties (this was before the Australian government force businesses to extend warranties). My success didn't go down well with a large corporation which I was completing against. Instead of completing right and try to win back the customers it lost, it used its market power to shut me down. First cutting prices to below cost, which hurt badly but luckily I had a supportive customer base.

But my luck ran out when the corporation made an expensive deal with the US corporations which was supplying both of us, the corporation got the suppliers to cut me off by making itself the exclusive supplier, which meant I had to buy my stock off the same corporation that I was completing against. And of course the corporation made sure I didn't have products to sell, killing me off completely.

I believe in real business, free markets and economics where it is the customer who chooses where they put their money and in the process chooses what business lives or dies. If you want to live in a reality where corporations has that power, and as a result you get crappy jobs and products, have fun and enjoy it. But I choose to live in a reality full of small businesses owned by people who care about their business, customers and staff.

That's what I am saying - monopolies aren't awesome. There is a guy in trouble for doing it with the epi-pen emergency anithistamine for severe allergic reactions.

https://qz.com/764181/mylan-epipen-m...icing-scandal/

Running up the price to $600 a pen when it could save anyone's life is not cool. Generics come up, but they haven't been able to get a good one together to help anyone.

US businesses were cutting cut like that in the bad economy, too. That's why it is distressing to hear that small businesses are still having trouble. Throwing additional regulations only made it worse. Some of these "large corporations" started small and people tend to forget that!

[Member11]

That's what I am saying - monopolies aren't awesome. There is a guy in trouble for doing it with the epi-pen emergency anithistamine for severe allergic reactions.

https://qz.com/764181/mylan-epipen-m...icing-scandal/

Running up the price to $600 a pen when it could save anyone's life is not cool. Generics come up, but they haven't been able to get a good one together to help anyone.

US businesses were cutting cut like that in the bad economy, too. That's why it is distressing to hear that small businesses are still having trouble.

Exactly, so what is your solution to the problem if not regulations? Mylan isn't in trouble, all it is getting is bad press, but it knows that will go away at some point and the people who need the EpiPen isn't going to stop buying it. The price increase is staying. Without normal market forces like competition and customer power, you got a complete market failure that is just going to get worst.

Small businesses are dying out there, patients are getting rip off and becoming poorer taking more money out of the economy. The economy is barely moving and is headed for another crash. The regulations Trump is getting rid of will do nothing, regulations isn't stopping banks from lending to small businesses, the banks don't lend anymore because gambling on the sock market is far more profitable.

Some of these "large corporations" started small and people tend to forget that!

Yeah, that is true, but the corporations lost that mindset, especially with the people who made the business long gone, replaced by know nothing CEOs and directors who could not start up and run a successful business even if their lives depended on it. Just look at the situation you are in, you can't tell me the executive cares about the business, customers and the staff, including yourself.

After my situation, Australia passed in 2010 powerful consumer laws, requiring all products and services sold must be "fit-for-purpose" and of "acceptable quality". The laws gives us customers so much power, even with large corporations. The laws worked perfectly with bad corporations falling into line, customers are getting the products they want and it is much easier to set up a small business and take on large corporations. At the moment, Australia has a right-wing government and even it is supportive of these laws, in fact the laws are going to be improved on with an "effects test" on anti-competitive behaviour.

Now, I'm not saying the USA and Australia is the same and the USA should do what Australia does. The point I'm trying to make here is not all regulations are evil, some are bad, poorly written and/or just stupid, but most are not. You rely on many everyday. It is why you can eat the food you buy without worrying about getting food poisoning, you don't have to worry about the building you work in falling down, you know you'll get out of the building safely if there is a fire, and you can use your computer and other devices without getting electrocuted.

[Ironman]

Exactly, so what is your solution to the problem if not regulations? Mylan isn't in trouble, all it is getting is bad press, but it knows that will go away at some point and the people who need the EpiPen isn't going to stop buying it. The price increase is staying. Without normal market forces like competition and customer power, you got a complete market failure that is just going to get worst.

Small businesses are dying out there, patients are getting rip off and becoming poorer taking more money out of the economy. The economy is barely moving and is headed for another crash. The regulations Trump is getting rid of will do nothing, regulations isn't stopping banks from lending to small businesses, the banks don't lend anymore because gambling on the sock market is far more profitable.



Yeah, that is true, but the corporations lost that mindset, especially with the people who made the business long gone, replaced by know nothing CEOs and directors who could not start up and run a successful business even if their lives depended on it. Just look at the situation you are in, you can't tell me the executive cares about the business, customers and the staff, including yourself.

After my situation, Australia passed in 2010 powerful consumer laws, requiring all products and services sold must be "fit-for-purpose" and of "acceptable quality". The laws gives us customers so much power, even with large corporations. The laws worked perfectly with bad corporations falling into line, customers are getting the products they want and it is much easier to set up a small business and take on large corporations. At the moment, Australia has a right-wing government and even it is supportive of these laws, in fact the laws are going to be improved on with an "effects test" on anti-competitive behaviour.

Now, I'm not saying the USA and Australia is the same and the USA should do what Australia does. The point I'm trying to make here is not all regulations are evil, some are bad, poorly written and/or just stupid, but most are not. You rely on many everyday. It is why you can eat the food you buy without worrying about getting food poisoning, you don't have to worry about the building you work in falling down, you know you'll get out of the building safely if there is a fire, and you can use your computer and other devices without getting electrocuted.

Well, yeah, some regulations are good - I don't want all of them gone, but we have had ones that have been too strong, to the point where it is okay to take a risk and relax a few of them so companies and get in and build. We are trying to get out of a recession and some of the rules are suppressing companies from being able to borrow, when they would clearly have the credit rating to be able to handle it.

We have the ability to put the rules back in place if things go wrong.

[Total Eclipse]

I don't know your reality in which monopolies are awesome, misuse of market power is normal and small business is crushed and not allowed in the market.

I think @Lunaire was disagreeing with the examples you gave and the process of econ rather than wanting people to have monopolies. They where disagreeing with comparing food (which is a need) to a luxury item of TV and internet--- don't compare.

And as for GMO-related things and Monsanto... people need awareness. It's not about Monsanto's business tactics or monopoly that is alarming... but the harmful things that are in GMO's. In-fact they have cancer warnings on GMO products in some of the States now. Smoking was super popular at one point too.. and than, once people realized that it wasn't good for you... dramatically stopped. It's about education and making sure the consuming gets the best quality.

[Member11]

I think @Lunaire was disagreeing with the examples you gave and the process of econ rather than want people to have monopolies. They where disagreeing with comparing food (which is a need) to a luxury item of TV and internet--- don't compare.

I think the internet and by extension smartphones are a necessity, rather than a luxury. That might be where the disagreement is. There might be cases where you can go without, but that is the same for other necessity like electricity and even food. Keep in mind at one point electricity was considered a luxury, and now a necessity. As more and more things are moved onto the internet, it will be more recognised as a necessity. To be honest, I don't think in person stores wouldn't exist in the future.

[Lunaire]

I think @Lunaire was disagreeing with the examples you gave and the process of econ rather than want people to have monopolies. They where disagreeing with comparing food (which is a need) to a luxury item of TV and internet--- don't compare.

This is accurate. I believe that free market economics have been inaccurately portrayed here and disagree that the United States has an issue with monopolies.

Using market power to drive out competitors is a consequence of industry conditions and is not a "market failure". A market failure in traditional microeconomic theory is when market supply fails to meet market demand.

The amount of logical fallacies and conversational misdirection used in this thread is astounding.

Claiming that I am "pro-monopoly" is a misrepresentation of the facts, a false cause fallacy, and a strawman argument.

[Member11]

Using market power to drive out competitors is a consequence of industry conditions and is not a "market failure".

You can't say it is something that should be allowed to happen, it gives a lot of power to large corporations to stop small businesses getting to market. Those large corporations used to be small businesses at one point, that is true, but those corporations didn't face the same barriers to market that the small businesses these days do. With all this unchecked market power, where can the next Microsoft come from, or the next 21st Century Fox, or the next KFC?

I believe that free market economics have been inaccurately portrayed here and disagree that the United States has an issue with monopolies.

The United States does have issues, the push to merge and get bigger and bigger is a house of cards that can do a lot of damage. If it wasn't for the US government stepping in, Comcast, Time Warner and Charter would have merged into a huge mess. Just imagine one company employing 243,000 people, if the company failed and had mass laid offs, it would send the US economy into a recession. The failure of one business should not kill a large economy like the United States. We have already seen what the failure of one large corporate bank can do.

You can't tell me there's no problems.

[Member11]

Well, yeah, some regulations are good - I don't want all of them gone, but we have had ones that have been too strong, to the point where it is okay to take a risk and relax a few of them so companies and get in and build. We are trying to get out of a recession and some of the rules are suppressing companies from being able to borrow, when they would clearly have the credit rating to be able to handle it.

We have the ability to put the rules back in place if things go wrong.

But there is a problem with mass removing regulations at speed, then putting them back, then taking them out again and repeating over and over again. It puts a brake on business investment and makes it near impossible to take risk as how would you know what the rules will be tomorrow or next week? What Trump is doing, especially at the speed he is doing it, is causing more harm than good.

No-one who goes into government are evil people and all regulations were put in with good intentions to try to address a problem. The mindset should be lets review the regulations see if they are doing what is intended, see if there were any unintended consequences and see if the problem is still there. If there is any problems, then work out the best way to fix it while avoiding any unintended consequences.

Even though he has good intentions, the bonfire approach used by Trump is causing problems and is going to end badly. The US economy is complex and full of unforeseeable consequences. As seen with the Muslim ban, the airlines and the movie industry suffered losses.

[sunrise]

Hasn't the notion of free market economy been debunked? I don't think I ever took econ class, but I thought we developed antitrust laws in the U.S. because monopolies formed when there was very little regulation. Alan Greenspan, who was a strong believer in Ayn Rand's lassez faire philosophy, was devastated when the economy tanked and admitted he was wrong. Doesn't history prove time and again that when you peel back regulation, things go south?

"...standard economic theory is typically overenthusiastic about unregulated free markets. It usually ignores the fact that, given normal human weaknesses, an unregulated competitive economy will inevitably spawn an immense amount of manipulation and deception." -ROBERT J. SHILLER Professor of Economics at Yale

The crash of 2008 was largely fueled by shady Wall Street transactions. It could've been prevented had there been someone paying attention. Wouldn't pulling back the regulations just set us up for another economic crisis?