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    Internet Privacy

    So in case you have been living under a rock this week there have been significant leaks regarding the NSA and pretty much tracking anything and everything that you do. In case you missed it the programs that where leaked where documents that detailed how Verizon where giving the NSA any and all phone records of all their customers and how a program called prism collects any and all internet info in foreign countries. However there have been reports from other whistleblowers for years (William Binny) that the NSA is sucking in any and all electronic data both abroad and domestically. So what SHOULD be done about this? Are you comfortable living in a world where the government tracks any and all your communications at all periods of the day? Or should their be significant safeguards put into place that help ensure that your privacy online and offline is maintained?

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    I once saw something on the simpsons like this. But it was portrayed as a joke. It's prety scary that they do it in real life. I'm not even a US citizen and the most time I've spent over there is two weeks on holiday. It's scary that it seems they're tracking my internet use. Seems to have been happening over here too. Pretty sure that's against European laws. I get investigating someone who you suspect of being a terrorist. Except the majority of people aren't, and even googling "Al Qaeda" does not make you one. Seriously, I can't believe that my government has said "Oh it's nonsense" or "If ypu're a law abiing citizen you have nothing to fear".

    I really am not comfortable living in a world where, regardless of whether America has a pretty powerful military and the largest economy in the world, they feel it's okay to track what I'm up to if so need be. I am not an American citizen, I don't live there, I don't have to obey your laws or pay taxes to you or have anything much to do with you, and I don't see why they feel the right to track me if they so please! I obey the laws over here, but I am NOT okay with possibly being tracked and having my data recorded by paranoid politicians in another country that I have spent two weeks in my entire life, or the possibility that I can be arrested for breaking one of America's laws for doing something thats legal here but not there and shipped over to america based on data thats collected by PRISM, when I'm supposed to be protected against this by UK laws and by Europes laws!

    Sorry, that turned into a vent. I think that got my opinion of this across. And here I was, thinking we were living in the western-world.
    I'M GONNA FIGHT 'EM ALL
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    Koalafan's Avatar Socially inept Koala
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    ^
    Oh no need to apologize for the vent at all! This is truly terrifying stuff knowing that the government can track any and all your information (not sure how much spying is going on in the UK though ). I likes my privacy and I surely do not want the government tracking my info even if it is to catch "terrorists" (whatever the hell that means these days). But sadly I highly doubt people are going to get outraged enough by this and sadly this is only going to get worse over time. The more time we let slip through our fingers the worse the tracking is going to get to the point where we might not be able to turn back the clock =/. So I really hope this stirs a debate right now rather than 10 or 20 years from now where who knows what the NSA is going to be tracking and doing.

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    L's Avatar
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    Otherside's Avatar
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    Quote Koalafan View Post
    ^
    Oh no need to apologize for the vent at all! This is truly terrifying stuff knowing that the government can track any and all your information (not sure how much spying is going on in the UK though ). I likes my privacy and I surely do not want the government tracking my info even if it is to catch "terrorists" (whatever the hell that means these days). But sadly I highly doubt people are going to get outraged enough by this and sadly this is only going to get worse over time. The more time we let slip through our fingers the worse the tracking is going to get to the point where we might not be able to turn back the clock =/. So I really hope this stirs a debate right now rather than 10 or 20 years from now where who knows what the NSA is going to be tracking and doing.
    It is, sadly. There's a lot of the politicians saying that "stopping terrorism comes before privacy" or "We'd be able to stop terrorism a lot more easily if we were able to look at what people do online." I don't do anything illegal online and I have nothing to fear, but how long until some government decides to see which users on the internet are looking at the websites of other politcal parties?

    Over here...governments defending it, but theres been accusations that a group over here, GHSQ, have been using Prism as well to get info on UK citizens. It's going to court, I think.

    This has really not been a good week. First of all this, and now the news that there was a secret "blacklist" on here that would stop you from getting a job with some companies if you were deemed to be "part of the green party" or "raised health and safety concerns."

    I really do hope that guy doesn't get extradicted to Hong Kong. Seems there isn't such a thing as a "free country" or a "democracy" anymore. I really am ashamed to be a part of this country sometimes.
    I'M GONNA FIGHT 'EM ALL
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    toaster little's Avatar
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    I don't think they'll be able to stop anything effectively even if they track everyone's activities online. People like that aren't going to do much online.

    If I wanted to pull a prank on the OP like a trap where a pie is thrown at your face as soon as you step on something on the floor, I wouldn't look it up online so you won't be able to trace it. I wouldn't even text or call people.

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    Tinkerbell's Avatar
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    What is happening currently is not new. (see below) And it has always been done under the guise of national/international security. It always ends up being a big deal when caught and then the finger-pointing begins. Current polls show that a majority of people would rather feel safe than worry about this kind of snooping. Very 1984 - Orwell feel.


    Carnivore was a system implemented by the Federal Bureau of Investigation that was designed to monitor email and electronic communications. It used a customizable packet sniffer that can monitor all of a target user's Internet traffic. Carnivore was implemented in October 1997.

    ECHELON
    is a name used in global media and in popular culture to describe a signals intelligence (SIGINT) collection and analysis network operated on behalf of the five signatory states to the UKUSA Security Agreement[1] (Australia, Canada, New Zealand, theUnited Kingdom, and the United States, referred to by a number of abbreviations, including AUSCANNZUKUS[1] and Five Eyes).[2][3]It has also been described as the only software system which controls the download and dissemination of the intercept of commercial satellite trunk communications.[4]

    ECHELON, according to information in the European Parliament document, "On the existence of a global system for the interception of private and commercial communications (ECHELON interception system)" was created to monitor the military and diplomatic communications of the Soviet Union and its Eastern Bloc allies during the Cold War in the early 1960s.[5]


    Never be bullied into silence.
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    -Robert Frost-

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    WineKitty's Avatar
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    ^^As stated above, there is nothing new and not sure why this is suddenly "news". This has been going on for years and years and it's being portrayed in the media as something "new".
    "You can never really know a person and if you think you can, you're living in a fucking dream world!" David Fisher, Six Feet Under

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    ^As much as that is sadly true and probably doesn't surprise me, I'm guessing there's a whole load of hype all of a sudden because an NSA employee has made a run from America, is currently a refugee in Hong Kong and is hoping they won't let him stay there, and he got the press's interest. When it comes down to it, its only going to make the "news" if it's going to paid for by the good old public. Would the response how been the same if it had an 89 year old pensioner who sent an email to the news from her bungalow in Oregon, I wonder?

    Nevertheless, regardless of whether it has been happening or not, I don't like it, and I'm pretty sure it's totally illegal over here. And I don't like knowing that an email I sent to someone could very well have been read by a government organization that quite frankly, has nothing to do with me, and has no power over me, as large as the American economy may be, and as much as they may consider themselves to be the world superpower, I still live in Europe. I can just about get it if my own government were to do it. But this is supposed to be peacetime, and America and Britain are not at war. And as it is, I can't exactly vote against the president or the party who's allowing this, since I'm not an American Citizen.

    At the very least, I can make an attempt at kicking the prime minister over here out of power, and somehow, I don't think he's going to be staying for much longer.
    I'M GONNA FIGHT 'EM ALL
    A SEVEN NATION ARMY COULDN'T HOLD ME BACK.......


  10. #10
    Koalafan's Avatar Socially inept Koala
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    Quote WineKitty View Post
    ^^As stated above, there is nothing new and not sure why this is suddenly "news". This has been going on for years and years and it's being portrayed in the media as something "new".
    While this is nothing new and has been going on for awhile, it by no means makes it okay and is still extremely alarming. This isnt about how long this has been going on but if we want to live in a world (which most likely already exists) in which the government monitors and tracks anything and everything we do. People HAVE to be outraged by this if anything is ever going to change. Right now we have a tiny window in which people are pissed off and its still fresh in our minds. If something doesnt get done, this is only going to get worse and worse and the NSA is going to go back to doing exactly what its doing now except even more pervasive than before.

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    WineKitty's Avatar
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    Quote Koalafan View Post
    While this is nothing new and has been going on for awhile, it by no means makes it okay and is still extremely alarming. This isnt about how long this has been going on but if we want to live in a world (which most likely already exists) in which the government monitors and tracks anything and everything we do. People HAVE to be outraged by this if anything is ever going to change.


    Did I say it "makes it okay"?? No, I didn't.

    "...it's sad but hardly surprising. On the fear of 9/11 the so-called "Patriot Act" was rushed through and is seemingly the one thing Reps and Dems agree on as no one has done a damn thing to repeal it....although I can think of a few leaders that have been vocally against it.

    This is a huge failing for Obama. He hasn't tried to repeal it, but rather expanded on it. This and his inaction of Guantanamo Bay should be what people are talking about rather than cell phones, teleprompters and IRS line dancing. But, oddly, the same people that will skewer Obama over a teleprompter seem fine with the Patriot Act.

    But, I have little doubt had it been a Romney administration this would have been one whit different.

    The Patriot Act is about the most unpatriotic thing ever passed--passed in haste 45 days post 9/11, on the fear of Americans. Bush created the monster but Obama continues to feed the same monster...."

    An excerpt of a post I made on the same subject on another forum.

    Right now we have a tiny window in which people are pissed off and its still fresh in our minds. If something doesnt get done, this is only going to get worse and worse and the NSA is going to go back to doing exactly what its doing now except even more pervasive than before..
    Sorry, I don't agree that people have only now become aware of this or have been "pissed off" about it. It's merely a recent political ploy to use against Obama by the right, another "scandal"...

    Here is an article that shows people weren't happy about this years ago but nothing changed. I don't like it either. I hate the Orwellian named "PATRIOT ACT" that started all this crap. Bush began the stripping away of personal freedoms and Obama has extended it rather than changed anything. I was outraged about this YEARS ago but the same douchebags keep getting voted into Congress despite what I think.

    http://yahoo.usatoday.com/news/washi...5-10-nsa_x.htm

    The National Security Agency has been secretly collecting the phone call records of tens of millions of Americans, using data provided by AT&T, Verizon and BellSouth, people with direct knowledge of the arrangement told USA TODAY.

    The NSA program reaches into homes and businesses across the nation by amassing information about the calls of ordinary Americans — most of whom aren't suspected of any crime.
    This may be news to some but not to me and my outrage has calmed a bit since the early 2000s when we gave up personal freedoms in the name of security. Sorry, hard to sustain "outrage" for 12 years. I haven't liked the direction this country has been going for a long, long time. It doesn't "Make it okay". But people continue to elect the same ones to Congress and therefore NOTHING changes. This might be a "fresh" story to you---but not to millions of people who were outraged about this for over a decade.

    You want things to really change? Then don't elect the same group of people over and over and expect things to be different.

    I want to see the abolishment of political parties, end of lobbyists, the end of representative government which has outlived its usefulness and personal liberties restored. But I concede that most of America doesn't share this with me.

    So exactly what do you plan to do to channel your outrage into change? I would love to hear your suggestions?
    "You can never really know a person and if you think you can, you're living in a fucking dream world!" David Fisher, Six Feet Under

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    I agree with WineKitty, no one has said this is okay, we simply stated a fact that this has been going on for years. The NSA was created in 1952 under Truman and this type of surveillance has been going on since then, always under the guise of protecting the US. Plenty of people are and have been outraged, The American Civil Liberties Union has filed lawsuits under 4th Amendment Rights as has EFF, the Electronic Frontier Foundation - civil liberties organization that has filed a class action lawsuit against AT&T for spying against US citizens. And you can bet that now all the news organizations, liberal and conservative, will be having a field day with this. Have you ever just googled your name, real or internet user, and read what pops up? Does that also concern you?

    Edit: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...6tX9b7jUBxk2xw

    Took me exactly 15 seconds to find this.
    Never be bullied into silence.
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    Accept no one's definition of your life;
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    I just found myself on an online listing site, address, who I live with, what's even more disturbing is that they've put "Age Guide 16-20" beside it and somebody could potentially see what court judgements I had against me (I have none). They want me to pay to get the full info about me. [BEEP] that, I'm emailing them and quoting a couple of laws and demanding to know what they have on me.

    Says at the bottom they know this because I registered to vote...

    Edit-Potentially, from a sample page of what you'd get if you paid, there's enough info on there for someone to steal my ID. Looks like I'm getting my name off there.

    Still, scary what you can find about yourself.

    Edit-They are joking if they think I'm going to register, giving more info about myself.
    I'M GONNA FIGHT 'EM ALL
    A SEVEN NATION ARMY COULDN'T HOLD ME BACK.......


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    otherside in the uk you have to be careful which registrar of voters you belong to, heres a link id change it if i was you http://www.aboutmyvote.co.uk/faq/reg...g_to_vote.aspx

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    Koalafan's Avatar Socially inept Koala
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    Quote WineKitty View Post


    Did I say it "makes it okay"?? No, I didn't.

    "...it's sad but hardly surprising. On the fear of 9/11 the so-called "Patriot Act" was rushed through and is seemingly the one thing Reps and Dems agree on as no one has done a damn thing to repeal it....although I can think of a few leaders that have been vocally against it.

    This is a huge failing for Obama. He hasn't tried to repeal it, but rather expanded on it. This and his inaction of Guantanamo Bay should be what people are talking about rather than cell phones, teleprompters and IRS line dancing. But, oddly, the same people that will skewer Obama over a teleprompter seem fine with the Patriot Act.


    Well then I apologize and rather concede that I misread your intentions in your last post . But yes I absolutely agree that people should of been outraged by the patriot act, and the same with the bush wiretaps back in '06. And Obama has done jack squat and has actually expanded these programs under his watch. And of course the repubs who thought it was fine under bush are outraged under obama and vice versa withe the dems (even if both parties still largely agree with the programs).


    Quote WineKitty View Post
    The Patriot Act is about the most unpatriotic thing ever passed--passed in haste 45 days post 9/11, on the fear of Americans. Bush created the monster but Obama continues to feed the same monster...."

    An excerpt of a post I made on the same subject on another forum.
    Quote WineKitty View Post


    Sorry, I don't agree that people have only now become aware of this or have been "pissed off" about it. It's merely a recent political ploy to use against Obama by the right, another "scandal"...

    Here is an article that shows people weren't happy about this years ago but nothing changed. I don't like it either. I hate the Orwellian named "PATRIOT ACT" that started all this crap. Bush began the stripping away of personal freedoms and Obama has extended it rather than changed anything. I was outraged about this YEARS ago but the same douchebags keep getting voted into Congress despite what I think.

    http://yahoo.usatoday.com/news/washi...5-10-nsa_x.htm



    This may be news to some but not to me and my outrage has calmed a bit since the early 2000s when we gave up personal freedoms in the name of security. Sorry, hard to sustain "outrage" for 12 years. I haven't liked the direction this country has been going for a long, long time. It doesn't "Make it okay". But people continue to elect the same ones to Congress and therefore NOTHING changes. This might be a "fresh" story to you---but not to millions of people who were outraged about this for over a decade.
    Oh I should of made known I have been WELL aware of the privacy concerns that have been raised by the patriot act and have long suspected that (from previous NSA whistleblowers like William Binney for instance) that the NSA sucks up any and all of your info. Im kind of a nerd when it comes to privacy issues and our government . And yes I completely agree that it's incredibly easy to become jaded with an issue like this where it seems things only get worse and worse. But right now there is a brief window where people are engaged and getting something to change is actually (if only slightly) possible. Of course theres a massive chance that nothing is going to change and things only get worse (like obviously it has), but a debate is happening right now and its hard to pass that chance up. When that window is gone the only chance to even attempt to change things is well...during the next creepy NSA leaks that people get outraged about. Things might not have changed when the patriot act and the bush wiretaps leak but that doesn't mean with 100% certainty that things won't change .


    Quote WineKitty View Post
    You want things to really change? Then don't elect the same group of people over and over and expect things to be different.



    I want to see the abolishment of political parties, end of lobbyists, the end of representative government which has outlived its usefulness and personal liberties restored. But I concede that most of America doesn't share this with me.
    Now this is something I can get on board with and is actually something I have long advocated . I absolutely think that the internet is the wave of government of the future and am appalled by the whole representative thing. Hell, I think even the idea of a "president" is archaic and outdated. Especially when the only type of people that can run are either A) extremely wealthy or B) extreme sell outs.

    Quote WineKitty View Post
    So exactly what do you plan to do to channel your outrage into change? I would love to hear your suggestions?
    Well just talking about it is always the first step . I'm absolutely not guaranteeing that anything is going to change but seeing how Im crippled with anxiety and depression talking is about as far as Im getting . But just making sure that the public stays engaged with the issue is always the hard part. But of course I have always toyed with the idea of a digital bill of rights that applies to our online life. Our privacy laws NEED to be updated for the 21st century, but this is something we're obviously going to have to fight for. While of course it seems like an almost impossible task to turn this ship around on our privacy its not totally impossible and miracles can happen. But if I just say nothing and do nothing...well then I guarantee that nothing is going to happen . So sorry for the rant! But this is a great debate area!

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